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“I have read about half the book, found it fascinating but also depressing-- nothing to do with the title itself: in the first chapters I thought "Well, I don't think I would have behaved like this" but after a while I was really starting to lose hope in the human race...
This is a thought-provoking book, and a must.
BOOKTALK.ORG, which is another book reading group I belong to, is presently discussing "The Lucifer Effect".
I will copy some of the things I wrote in Booktalk here, and I envite you to read all the other postings at Booktalk for this book.
1- Abu Ghraib.
The amount of information and the quality of the analysis given in chapter 14 are amazing. Abu Ghraib is one of those things I never expected to see analyzed in depth.
What Zimbardo writes about pornographic sites on the net and other "trophy pictures" taken before in other war situations gives a very useful perspective.
To add to all this horror, I found that the whistleblower, Joe Darby, was given six-month round the clock military protection on his return to the States and could not return to his hometown because his life was at risk from his irate patriotic neighbours. I had no idea, I can't watch CBS here and somehow I never heard.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/07/60minutes/main2238188_page4. shtml
One thing that was mentioned regularly in France at the time was surprise and admiration for the fact that the whistleblower's information was actually investigated by the military and went up to the top.
In another case of similar abuse of prisoners in Iraq mentioned in chapter 14, military commanders found incriminating photos in soldiers' bags and simply destroyed them. This is what I, and for example two non-commissioned officers I know in the Air Force, would expect the military to do in France, and that's in peace time.
2- The Milgram Experiments.
I am going to comment on Milgram's experiments in reference to what Zimbardo writes in ch 12 and also to the wikipedia article (which I highly recommend).
[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment [/url]
Obedience to authority.
I don't know what to think. At first I concentrated on the date Zimbardo gives, 1972: I thought (I still think) that over 30 years ago there was more readiness to obey authority (from the pamphlet the people who expemimented could not be students) than there would be today, but then wiki explains that Milgram repeated his experiements over the years, with similar results.
I can't deny that these experiments were made, and yet this contradicts what I see in everyday life. In life, people will do a lot of things to obey and please bosses, because they want to keep their jobs. Apart from that, I don't see much eagerness to toe the line. For example, if people are reminded by authority that they/ their children/ their dogs make too much noise, they are unlikely to comply with the law and change their behaviour.
If the "authority" is one degree below the police and cannot give a fine, they are likely to be insulted as well.
I also see people arguing at length when stopped by the police and they (the driver) are obviously in the wrong.
Could we perhaps argue that someone who volunteers for an experiment is not in the same frame of mind as someone who would be asked (but not told) to take part?
Then, a small point about the "experts".
Zimbardo devotes a paragraph, p 271, to questions which were asked to " a group of forty psychiatrists" before the experiment was done.
I was very surprised that psychiatrists should have beeen willing to commit themselves to answer such a question, but in wikipedia the experts become "fourteen Yale University senior-year psychology majors".
This version, especially in view of the answers they give, makes much more sense to me.
Responsibility: Of course, the willingness to hurt others is the most shocking aspect, but since I can't explain this, I would at least have thought that people would keep their self-interest in mind.
p 271: " when the experimenter reassured him that he would take responsibility, the worried teacher obeyed and continued..."
So, the teachers were either under shock and unable to think, or they were extremely naïve. Doing something illegal under somebody else's responsibility does not absolve you from responsibility in the eyes of the law. Even in the miltary, according to the rules it is illegal to obey an illegal order (regarding torturing prisoners for example).
To me it is amazing that hearing repeated assurances of "I assume full rersponsibility" did not send a danger signal in connection with self-preservation (again, assuming this is the only thing that could be hoped for).
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ophelia wrote this review Wednesday, January 30 2008.
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