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  Book Discussion - The Mermaids Singing by Val McDermid

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  ****SPOILER ALERT**** This is a discussion about the book and will contain spoilers. Please close the topic if you have not read The Mermaids Singing.
  
  Please post your comments as replies to questions and feel free to add your own questions.

  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) started this discussion 1 year ago. ( reply | permalink )

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  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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  What is the meaning of the title?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    I'm glad you asked this Jonetta, thought I must have missed the reason in reading. I am intrigued as to the reason - wish I could answer it! Even checked out the author's website - but can't see a reason on there! There is a film called I Heard the Mermaid's Singing but this doesn't seem to help and it is also a line in a poem. So if any of you that are more intelligent than me,can think of a reason (or have I missed the obvious, wouldn't be the first time), please put me out of my misery!
    Only possible thought is mermaids don't exist (sorry If I burst anyone's bubble!) and looking for a male murderer that didn't exist in that form. Weak - but struggling to think of anything else.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    Here's a link to the entire T. S. Eliot poem where the last segment refers to "I have heard the mermaids singing". I stink at interpreting poetry so maybe someone could shed some light. Could it possibly have something to do with the chat-line/murder connection? The victims thought they were hearing something that was music to their ears and they ended up "drowning?"

    I said I stink at this.

    http://www.bartleby.com/198/1.html

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew (edited)

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    Look at my analysis Jonetta - can't stink anymore than me! Not a great one for poems anyway. I have to say I quite like your analysis. The singing being sweet to the ears as were the telephone calls for Tony.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    In British folklore, mermaids are a sign of an approaching storm or disaster at sea. Perhaps the title has something to do with the killer growing up in a coastal town.
    Another possible interpretation may be that the mermaid singing could be compared to the siren's call. A siren in Greek mythology would lure sailors to their deaths with their songs in much the same way that Anjelica lured or tempted her victims with her phone calls.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    Oh, thank you, Lauren:) It always bothers me when I haven't a clue about a book's title and how it relates to the story.

    Andrew, I like your theory, too!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    I did think about the coastal element, but I think you may have hit the key point Lauren when you talk about 'the ssiren's call' being the telephone call luring her victims to their death in much the same way as the siren's call 'lured sailors to their deaths'. Brilliant! :-)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    To be honest, I was wondering about the connection from the beginning of the book and it actually only began making sense in the epilogue when Carol and Tony are discussing Anjelica's MO.

    The English lecturer in me also appreciated the allusion to T.S. Elliot - in the poem, the mermaids won't sing for the narrator. It could also be that Tony wants the mermaid/serial killer (very weird comparison) to "sing" i.e. confess to him. This possibility is a little out there though.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Kris 

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    Mermaids in myth were seen as Sirens that when they sing any man would fall for them and usual end up dead. Angelica I think thought of herself as a siren.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    This very much fits with Lauren's theory. Now the title of the book makes sense!!!! Yay! :-)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    I agree! Mystery solved.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew (edited)

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    See what we can achieve when we all work together! :-)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Kris 

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    Totally...see team work always helps!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Monica 

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    I was trying to figure out the meaning of the title, too. I came up with the same theory as Kris - mermaids = sirens.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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  The author told the story beginning with the fourth murder at present day and used the killers journal to chronicle his journey from the outset at the beginning of each chapter. How did this approach effect your reading experience?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    I quite liked the use of the journal - allowed you to get to know the mind set of the murderer and an insight as to what led up to the killings. I think this actually added to my reading experience.

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    It was extremely helpful to me when the police were working backwards and we were given insight into the killer's mindset. I was able to appreciate Carol and Tony's deductive reasoning skills. And, as the two began to converge, it heightened my anxiety. I really liked this method of telling the story.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Kris 

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    I agree with you Jonetta and Andrew.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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  There were lots of politics within the department at almost every level.  Do you think this is typical? Who was the most adept and effective?  How did he/she impact the investigation?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Wouldn't be surprised if politics of different departments are typical. In American TV programmes and books we always seen high levels of tensions and rivalries between FBI, CIA and police departments. Nobody would believe they are working to the same end - they always seem to hide information from each other and block each other's investigations.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    I think there was a lot of resentment within the police that the Home Office was trying to interfere in the way that they investigate crimes. It is a good thing that John Brandon left his ego at the door and knew when to ask for outside help.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Not just the interfence but also snobbishness of the police about the role of the profiler!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    It always, for me, comes down to leadership. Superintendent Cross seemed to have earned his "stripes" by being a supportive of his "lads" until women became part of the system. Then his own ego got in the way of what was the right thing to do for the investigation. I thought Brandon an extraordinary leader and Carol shows signs of being really, really good. She knew when to back pedal and when to work around the politics effectively.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    dustydigger (edited)

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    Another thing about Tony being from the Home Office,which is a government department is that the police like to think of themselves as independent,and would totally resent this person pushing himself in.Tony handles all that quite well,is quite tactful. Brandon was definitely working far outside the lines .Andrew hits the nail on the head,Tony coming in is like the FBI coming into police investigations,lots of anger and resentment towards him.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Kris 

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    There has always been this push and pull between Science and Arts - where does Psychology fall? Most of those in science think that Psychology is arty and getting touch with feelings. I think police (who deal with facts = forensics) see profiling as a waste of time. As Cross stated at one point Tony would just let them know he was not given enough teddy bears as a kid and that made him kill. They see it as a justification but not a tool to catch the killer.

    Politics comes from competition, credit and promotions. If you want to move up the ranks you need the credit for promotions and leaderships. Agencies cannot see the working as a team scheme and instead think only one team can get the recognition hence closing off to other forms of help.

    Journalists do not help the matter as they will try and get a scoop versus what is good for the case and police. They also tend to blame or champion one over another.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    When we begin to understand the differences between leading, managing and supervising, maybe we will see change.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Your so close to one of my soap boxes about leading v managing. Don't do it Andrew, step back from the soap box....

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    Uh, oh. This is my BIGGEST soapbox issue...

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Kris 

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    I agree and am trying to keep quiet as well. lol

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Like three peas in a pod! :-)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Monica 

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    I agree, I think Brandon was effective and did a great job knowing when to ask for help. I also think Carol was very good at this. She wanted to catch a killer, and didn't care about the credit.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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  The converse of the above, who was the least adept and effective?  How do you think it impacted the case?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    For the life of me, I could never figure a rationale for Kevin spilling secrets to a reporter, no matter him sleeping with her, when doing so hurt the investigation. He didn't seem that stupid.

    Cross was pretty obvious, a man who can't change with the times and everything being about him.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Not only hurting the investigation - but he must have known he would be putting lives at risk.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    You will learn more about him in future books.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Interesting!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    I assumed so as Penny planned to expose what they did to Stevie Connell.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    @Andrew What bothered me was their lack of concern about that. I can take people being boneheaded but to deliberately risk lives so callously was inexcusable.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Not only risking his life but also wrecking his life if he did survive Prison. He helped save a policeman and was charged with assault! No one tried to help him, including the policeman he saved.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    dustydigger 

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    Police closing ranks,I'm afraid,''my brother,right or wrong'' is far too common.Happens everywhere of course-look at doctors losing patients,its amazing how long it is before someone has the courage to be a whistleblower! lol

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    And then like in news in UK today the whistleblowers name is released which stops others from doing it!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    dustydigger 

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    The whistleblower always ends up being the villain,sneered at for telling tales.Hello,there are lives invoved.As they say in Yorkshire,''There's nowt as queer as folk! '' ;)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Monica 

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    Cross of course.

    But Kevin also really bothered me. I couldn't believe he felt enough animosity towards Carol to tell Penny that when the going gets tough, they should throw her under the bus. I was anxious through the rest of the book. Luckily, that neve happened, but now I wonder if it will in later books. What a jerk.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    I didn't get the impression that his actions were motivated by animosity. Rather he was thinking with the wrong brain, lol!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Monica 

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    @Lauren - Lol! Animosity may not be the right word, but I certainly wouldn't do that to somebody that I liked or respected. And maybe because she was the woman and quite good at the job, he chose her to take the fall if anything were to happen.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    That's true. He definitely would have preferred her to get the blame than one of the "guys".

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    The ugliness about sexism is that it will protect the most egregious behavior for the sake of keeping a status quo system. It is the epitome of ignorance.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Couldn't agree more!!!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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  Were you able to read the details of the tortures or did you find yourself skipping some sections?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Tortures did make me cringe and curl up at times, but yes was able to read them. Possibly because in writing but pretty evil! Had trouble trying to fully vision the way Tony was tied up and tortured.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    I actually looked up some of the torture mechanisms. Once I saw them (especially that Judas Chair), I decided to skim over the final moments of the victim's lives.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew (edited)

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    Why didn't I think of that. On second thoughts.....

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B (edited)

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    I didn't have any problem with those scenes and would love to visit that museum in Italy (loved the chamber of horrors at Madame Tussaud's). I guess I have a high tolerance for blood and gore as long as it is imaginary. Don't do as well with it in real life - almost passed out when my brother fell of his bicycle face first and needed stitches.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Exactly - agree Lauren. Don't do blood well!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) (edited)

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    Lauren, I still worry about you:)

    I can't do it as I experience what I read vicariously, especially if it's written well as it was here. I knew with that danged chair I wasn't going to be able to handle it.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    Lol, Jonetta.

    The only thing that really bothered me was the scene with the dog - I was actually considering not continuing with the book and was relieved when poor Prince passed on peacefully from the drug overdose. I cannot stomach animal abuse in any form.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    Oh, what a blessing that he OD'd. Angelica was one sicko.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew (edited)

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    Ok so torture, murder, serial killing etc ok but drugging the dog took you over the edge! Interesting. :-)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B (edited)

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    Absolutely!
    My internal logic and reasoning states that humans have the capacity for understanding cruelty and can fight back against others of their own kind. Animals are innocent and cannot defend themselves against human cruelty.
    This is why I won't watch or read Water for Elephants or any other movie/book that has animal abuse.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    This is very similar to child abuse ... they do not have the capacity to understand cruelty if this is all they've known and are also innocent and cannot defend themselves! You've just put me off Water for Elephants didn't know it covered animal abuse - off my list!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    Oops! I hope I haven't put you off a book you might enjoy. I've heard really good things about it but the animal abuse is a deal breaker for me.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Likewsie hear good things - but like you don't want to read a book based on animal abuse. Hate abuse at all levels!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    I admire your position about animals as I have similar views. I must admit, though, I've been a children's advocate for most of my adult life so that has a stronger voice for me. It's all bad and most of these real sickos start with animals.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    dustydigger 

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    Lauren,you wouldnt get me into that museum in Italy.Someone took me int Madame Tussauds as a child about 9,and I could shut my eyes now and still see it as clear as I did then.Awful.So why am I reading such books now....May i lie on your couch,Doctor Freud

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Tell me about your childhood....

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Kris 

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    I was able to read it but with major cringing. I don't mind it as long as it flows with the story and is written well. I don't like blood and guts just for the sake of it, but it went with the story.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    @Dusty - I think any 9 year old would cringe. I went to Madame Tussaud's as an adult. I'm sure if I had gone as a child I would still be having nightmares.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Still struggle with horror films after Dracula at a young age! Although can watch and love thrillers!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Monica 

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    I was able to read the torture scenes and then my poor husband had to hear all about it. He told me he was a bit worried about me... I also looked up all the different forms of torture, yuck! It amazes me that they are/were people filled with so much hatred/indifference that they could actually take pleasure in torturing another human. And it scares me to think of the people that created these forms of torture.

    @Andrew - I've read Water for Elephants and the abuse was hard to take, but it also did not live up to the hype for me. I did not care for it at all.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew (edited)

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    LOL! Should your husband be worried about you or worried for himself!
    Monica, this plus other comments recently about Water for Elephants has knocked it off my TBR. Thanks :)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    dustydigger (edited)

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    Just looked up my review of Water for Elephants and here is part of it
    From the start of the book I found his running away after his parents death a bit extreme,this is a grown man,finishing a vets course after all,but I let that go.The first section at the circus was interesting because of being a whole new world to me,and I was thinking,Holden Caulfield(Catcher in the Rye) with circus animals.I never warmed to the protagonist Jacob,and not one of the characters made me like them.I didnt find the romance very convincing,there was too much repetition in getting on and off the train,and the boss and Marlena's husband were too over the top to be convincing.I'll give the book 3 stars for all the info I got on the Depression and circus history,but I read the book dutifully,and certainly wouldnt want to read more.

    So I wasnt keen,but it divided opinion,many people loved it.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Thanks for that Dusty, not a glowing recommendation! Can think of many others on TBR and in other series that speak to me more! :)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lisa 

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    Sorry for the delay; three feet of snow and no power for over a week. Shortly after reading this book I watched the episode in 'Wire in the Blood'. Interestingly, I found the torture scenes harder to read than to watch. I attribute that to the strength of Val's writing and my active imagination. Also, I think there is more distance between viewer and television than reader and book. Finally, I, too, struggled with the dog scene. Animals and children trust adults for safety and security, and such scenes betray that trust which, to me, makes it worse. I find myself in the dilemma of recognizing strong writing that resurrects my worst nightmares and fears, vs. my desire to be entertained when I read, rather than made to face those fears.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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  Tony clearly has issues. Do you think he's unique or does this come with the territory of being a profiler?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) (edited)

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    I've often wondered if this is a hazard of this role. When one immerses him/herself in the mind of these sick individuals, does it leave a residue over time? How destructive is it I wonder. In the end, Tony's own issues got in the way of his profiling instead of the opposite.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    Reminds me of the adage:

    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Possibly like Police on TV programmes - always seem to expect and see the worst in people because they are always dealing with the worst aspects of humanity. Hopefully in subsequent books we get to find out more about Tony's issues.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Kris 

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    I think it is a little from column A and a little from column B. I think he may have had issues to start with and being on the job only makes it worse or highlights them.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    I agree wiith you Kris, feel there were issues there to start with, which were made worse.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Monica 

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    I also agree with you, Kris.

    I wonder if being the way he is is what drew him to being a profiler. Understanding the monsters, but maybe also being able to understand himself (and this is also what makes him such a good profiler). And he doesn't want to be like his patients, so I think it keeps him level.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lisa 

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    I think Monica has a good point; that this is what drew Tony to become a profiler. I've read all the books in this series and I think his past makes him want to reach out and help, and at the same time the job is like his own therapy. I also think Val has created a character who's past left him with a very strong sense of empathy. The danger in that, which this character seems to face, is empathy becoming closer to identifying with or maybe recognizing deeply buried fears of how easy it would be to become that which he empathizes with.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    I actually got a sense of that in this story. Tony seemed worried about his own empathy or ability to identify with these killers.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    Yes, he is able to sympathize and perhaps even identify with them but he is also appalled and disgusted with their actions, which is what makes him different from them.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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  What do you think of his role playing technique in creating a profile?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    dustydigger 

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    Hmm,he could just about get away with it in the book,but it looked a bit silly in the TV version.In fact,since so much of the book is tony's internal thoughts,the TV version had to resort to him walking up and down in front of the officers,talking aloud,thinking things through.It didnt really work for me,and I would be impatiently thinking,''get on with it''.Much preferred the book .

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    That's the problem with trying to put some books into the medium of films and tv, doesn't work as well.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    And he barely got away with it in the book! It felt odd initially but then, as I was learning things, I got over it. I cannot imagine how this looked on the screen.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    You'll have to try get hold of the DVD, but not until you've read more of the books.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    I think it worked well both in the book and in the show. In the show he comes across as very eccentric, more than in the book so when he walks up and down talking to himself, it is just another one of his eccentricities.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lisa 

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    It reminded me of a writer friend who role plays her characters. She even sits down at the table and asks a character a question, then jumps up, runs to the other chair, sits down, and answers the question. She hopes that no one ever sees her doing this, but says that it allows her greater insight and helps when she is stuck. So I never gave it a second thought when Tony did the same thing.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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  What is our fascination with serial killers? Did this one provide the same level of intrigue?  Why or why not?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Kris 

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    I watch a lot of true crime shows (ie: Dateline Mysteries, 48 Hours Mysteries, American Justice and Murder by the Book) and love crime shows (fiction). I love suspense/mystery/thriller novels but cannot read true crime novels.

    For me it's curiousity - I have a double major in Psychology and Sociology - so I am fascinated with human nature and motives. Serial Killers seem to be a part of a different world.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    I watch some of the same true crime stories and I read them (In Cold Blood, The Stranger Beside Me, Fatal Vision). I'm fascinated but at the heart of it, I'm a champion of good over evil and like reading that these nut jobs have been captured. Unfortunately, when I read Ted Bundy's book, he was still at large and I wasn't aware of that before I started. I couldn't sleep well for weeks.

    They are so foreign to my makeup and I keep trying to validate that it will continue to be so.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    I think the fascination comes from the idea that a human being, someone that could be any one of us, is capable of so much evil. We need to understand it as part of the human condition.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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  With all of the sexism Carol faced on the job, why do you think she was willing to put her reputation at risk by entering into a relationship with Tony?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Kris 

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    I think she knows that no matter what she does she will judged and while Tony is part of the justice system he is not a police officer which helps.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    You may be on to something. Even she thought it was risky but she has a strong attraction to Tony. And, they click professionally.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Kris 

    New Title

    

    it's a hard one - whether to stay professional or give into your wants.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    The personal can sometimes take over from the professional.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Lisa 

    New Title

    

    I always thought that Carol recognized another deeply flawed person. She has her own issues and past, and it seems like neither of them would slip easily into a relationship with someone who did not understand, empathize, or simply recognize their scars.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    dustydigger 

    New Title

    

    You are so right,Lisa,and put it really well.Both are isolated,and it is a great relief to them to find a fellow sufferer! :)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

• 

  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

  New Title

  

  There was an ongoing compare and contrast between the mind of the killer and Tony's profiling. Did this method make the story more interesting, more confusing or a little of both?  What worked and/or didn't work by using this approach?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  show 4 replies

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    It sort of suckered me into accepting Tony's profile completely so when he dismissed Carol's supposition, I favored his opinion. Very clever piece of writing.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

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    I think we were also suckered in because he was the so called expert so we gave hin that credibility and expected him to be right. We will know better in future books not just to take him totally at face value.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    Absolutely! We now have seen his vulnerabilities.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Kris 

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    I liked that you could see how close or far Tony was from his profile. But yes it does sucker you into Tony's profile.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

• 

  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

  New Title

  

  Who do you hold responsible for the Stevie McConnell debacle?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  show 5 replies

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    I hold Cross most accountable but why he wasn't isolated I'll never understand. Everyone else knew he wasn't the guy and they knew what would happen to him in jail. They cavalierly ruined this man's life who had actually helped save Merricks. Between Cross and Kevin, who knew better, they should be held accountable.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    At least manslaughter - do you use that in America, or is it second degree murder?

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

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    It would be manslaughter here in America (at least in most states). Second degree murder generally means you intended to kill someone but it wasn't premeditated.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    Thanks for that - like with english words, site is building up knowledge and understanding of USA.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Kris 

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    I agree Jonetta! I think they are both to blame.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

• 

  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

  New Title

  

  In addition to police procedurals, this story included the profiler procedurals. Was it helpful to have both, too much or something else?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  show 6 replies

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    I'm used to only reading the final product from profilers so seeing how Tony formed his conclusions was really interesting. I also like the police procedurals as they help me draw my own conclusions during the investigation. So, having both was helpful.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    I really enjoyed have both in as I also enjoyed having the murderer's viewpoint in. Gave more colour and dimensionality to the story.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Kris 

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    I think it made the novel more enjoyable that you get both ends of the investigation.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    dustydigger 

    New Title

    

    When I read the book about 15 years ago,we had never seen anything like this tabulation of factors so it really gripped your attention.Has been done in many books since,but was new and fresh then

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Lauren B 

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    I also enjoyed the profiling aspects of the story. It was well written and provided much insight not only into the killer but into Tony's character as well.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

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    I agree Lauren.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

• 

  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

  New Title

  

  Were you wondering why all the victims were letting this stranger into their homes so freely? When did you start putting the pieces together and figuring out who the killer was?  Did you have any early speculations?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  show 9 replies

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) (edited)

    New Title

    

    I kept thinking maybe this was a cultural difference as I couldn't understand why these men were letting another man come into their homes so easily. I was stunned when Angelica was revealed but it made more sense to me.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    I think we were also caught out because the killer was constantly presented as being male, including carrying bodies, and the caller was presented as very female. Very Tricky Ms. McDermid! Never had specualtion as to the murderer - my speculation was about the next victim and got that wrong! I can see why people may let someone into their house to phone for help, but in current day and age mobile phones would lead to any phone calls taking place outside the home. Perhaps I'm too trusting!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    I think I may be too suspicious having lived in New York City for a time and was conned on a couple of occasions.

    Your points about McDermid being very tricky are well taken. She really lured us away from considering anyone but a man.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Lauren B 

    New Title

    

    This was actually the first indication to me that the killer was not necessarily a man. Men are a not as threatened by a woman and would feel more comfortable letting one in the door, especially if he thought he might get something out of it.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    dustydigger 

    New Title

    

    Once again,it was 15 years ago,people were more trusting then,and UK is a much less violent society anyway.In the bad areas you might be wary,but these people were living in nice,better class areas,it probably wouldnt ring a warning bell to the victims.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Monica 

    New Title

    

    I'm with Lauren. This is when I started to wonder if the killer was a woman, or at least appeared to be a woman.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    My wife read this book this week, about a third of the way through the book she turned to me and said I think a woman was doing the murders, just over halfway said she thought Angelica was behind the murders!!!! Made me feel inadequate - not occurred to me in the reading as said above. However, must admit she is always more astute than me when reading books.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    Very astute woman who obviously wasn't swayed by Tony's dismissal of the possibility.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Definitely astute, as always! I think she'd made up her mind before Tony dismissed the possibility, but obviously didn't sway her.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

• 

  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

  New Title

  

  Tony's relationship with Angelica was presented very early on. Did it ever occur to you there might be a connection to the case?  What did you think of him participating in a profile of a sexual predator when he had his own issues?  Any ethical issues here?  Why or why not?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  show 6 replies

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    I thought his thing with Angelica might interfere with his profiling. I never made a connection to the actual killer.

    As far as the ethics, I was concerned that he never really tried (or at least I don't remember him doing so) to disassociate his feelings from that of the killer's sexual background. Perhaps this is why he missed the gender issues as his early upbringing created similar issues for himself. I think that's why in the end he was embarrassed that his own relationship with Angelica was discovered.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Kris 

    New Title

    

    I thought she was just a tool in showing Tony's sexual similarities/differences to the killer.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    Me, too.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    dustydigger 

    New Title

    

    Yes the clever writing made you gloss over it,but since then it has become a regular plot device,I ALWAYS keep it in mind when I am reading a book where they speculate why did the victim let the killer in.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Monica 

    New Title

    

    I actually thought there would be a connection, especially since I started thinking it could be a woman committing the crimes.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Think I am too naive in my reading! Even when I decide may be somebody or other, tend to wrong more than right.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

• 

  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

  New Title

  

  This story had a wealth of characters. Who were you most intrigued by?  Why or why not?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  show 8 replies

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    John Brandon was particularly intriguing to me. He seemed to have good investigative instincts and was politically astute. I also thought Carol was very good at her job. And, she was the one who considered it could be a transsexual or transvestite. Her instincts are sound and she's not perfect. I liked her character.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    I liked Carol's character - but did allow the personal to get in the way of the professional! Why didn't she raise the alarm earlier about the disappearance of Tony. Surely she should have prerceived a risk and the danger in this situation. Kept screaming at her but she didn't listen to me.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Lauren B 

    New Title

    

    Don Merrick was the most intriguing - caught between conflicting loyalties, he manages to act honorably and to do his job in the best possible way.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    I agree with you about Merricks. He also didn't get bugged when undercover in a gay bar and was respectful to all.

    @Andrew Carol's instincts were great...until she let her personal feelings about Tony get in the way. LOL re her listening to you! I knew it would be a matter of time before she realized that his absence was a big deal. And, she's the one that figured out how to find him. Good investigative skills.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Yep good investigative skills - lousy listening skills, listen to the reader!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Kris 

    New Title

    

    I liked all the characters which hardly ever happens...they seem realistic and all have interesting by stories.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Lauren B 

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    I agree Kris. They definitely weren't stereotyped or cardboard cutouts like you get in some books in this genre.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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    Monica 

    New Title

    

    I also liked all the characters (or hated them). I agree, even the minor characters, I was able to get a feel for them and understand them better.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

• 

  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

  New Title

  

  What is your overall opinion of the book? Of the writer? Plan to continue the series?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  show 17 replies

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    I really liked this book and McDermid's storytelling. She brought the case to life, from the descriptions of the actual murders, to the realism of police procedurals and the politics of the system. I plan to continue the series.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew (edited)

    New Title

    

    I have to say I really enjoyed the book and was surprised how much I enjoyed it. I gave it 4.25 stars, and enjoyed the interplay between Carol and Tony. I just feel the ending came a bit quick in the end, Tony got the knife effectively and stabbed her. I feel more tension could have been built up here and then it may have well got a better score. It was the very ending that I felt let me down a bit!
    I will definitely be reading on in the series, and luckily a colleague has got all the books and offered to lend them to me. Just need time in my reading plan!
    The English vocabulary e.g. Rent Boys, etc... has been discussed in the initial strand, did this affect the enjoyment for readers outside of the UK?

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    No, not at all. Once I got used to the slang and looked up some terms that I couldn't deduce from context, I rolled right along. I was serious when I said I was hearing the voices of each character with a British accent. I wish I knew more about the distinctions of someone from Northern England versus Southern.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Lauren B 

    New Title

    

    My cousins live in Manchester and when I visit, it takes me a while to get used to their heavy northern accent and understand what they're saying. They are kind to their "foreign" cousin and speak slowly.

    While I enjoyed the book, I don't think I will be continuing with the series. I've seen the TV show, which is almost 100% reenactment of the book and I know what happens to all of the characters.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Oh Jonetta that's a whole different can of worms! When I've got a few spare hours (if not days) we can discuss these distinctions and differences between people from the northern parts of England than the South. Good perspective - born in London and spent first 20+ years in London (southern England), spent next 20 years in two areas of northern England.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    Wow, Andrew. I wonder is that akin to our North/South differences here in the US. My family is from the South but we lived abroad most of the time until I started high school. When we retuned to the States, my cousins kept asking us to "say something else." And then we moved to New Jersey. To this day, no one can tell where I'm from. Have you adopted the northern England accent?

    Lauren, it's sort of like seeing the movie before reading the book, which I cannot seem to do, especially in this genre. Takes the punch out of it.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Lauren B 

    New Title

    

    @Jonetta - exactly.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Whole point of thrillers, mysteries and suspense books is this punch! Loses a lot of the point if know outcome beforehand.

    Accents very variable across UK in all compass directions. Quite strong accents - interesting to hear English accents on american programmes, don't meetmany people that talk the way they are portrayed! Intersting if I go back to the south told I've picked up the northern accent, and local northern people still tell me how strong my southern accent is. Obviously about different perspectives. If I record myself can hear northern aspects to the accent, but still a large element of the southern accent.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    I've only visited the UK once. Spent ten days in London, Oxford, Worchester and the Cotswalds. Spent five days in Scotland. I must say I fell in love with your country's gardens and architecture. My husband is dying to get us back there.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew (edited)

    New Title

    

    I love Scotland - spend most of the Summer Holidays each year in Scotland, especially the very north of Scotland. So quiet, peaceful, relaxing and views to die for. The Lake District, Wales and West Country (Devon and Cornwall) a must if you do get back.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    We were somewhere near Castle Douglas. My husband had a friend who lived there and we went to visit for fishing (them, not me).

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    We will drive through Castle Douglas at May Half-term, stay for the week on the coast at Garlieston. Small old coastal town - ideal for sea views and reading, reading, reading...

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    I stayed at a Bed & Breakfast and took long, long walks through the countryside (about 4 or 5 miles at a time), read and hung out with the proprietor who was a German national with extraordinary baking and gardening skills. She taught me a few things:)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    About gardening or baking!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    Both. She had the most incredible home garden I've ever seen that she cultivated herself. It was her hobby. The baking? The best pies I had tasted in some time. I'm not much of a cook but my Grandmother taught me to bake so I was all into that and she was willing to share her secrets.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Kris 

    New Title

    

    Liked it and will def continue the series!!! As I have been watching a lot of UK television mysteries this was right up my alley

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Monica 

    New Title

    

    I liked the book, but I don't think I'll continue on in the series anytime soon. I have too many other things to catch up on.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

• 

  Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

  New Title

  

  Any other comments?

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  show 12 replies

  • 

    Lauren B 

    New Title

    

    It was a good book and I enjoyed it. However, being a fan of the series and having seen the episode based on the book none of the twists and turns were surprising. Reading the book did make me want to watch the series again though.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Lauren most probably saw the episode when it was on but can't particularly remember it! I have to say the twist at the end did surprise me ... but often get surprised by twists! I was expecting Carol's brother to be a kidnap / potential murder victim ... was I wrong there! Perhaps I don't think books through enough when I read them.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    I was thrown off because Tony was so dismissive about the killer being a transsexual or transvestite.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    I agree, presented right in front of us by Carol and just dismissed out of hand.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Lauren B 

    New Title

    

    @Andrew - I wonder how much that has to do with the way in which Tony and Carol are depicted. He is the male academic and she is the female cop subjected to a certain amount of sexism. At a certain point, Tony's opinions seem to become indisputable and it is easy to dismiss Carol's voice.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Would have to agree with this perspective - two issues here the so-called expert and the gender.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    Really good point.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    dustydigger 

    New Title

    

    When I first read it -aarrgghh 16 years ago,profiling was still pretty new,and we all were fascinated by it.now it seems cliched and old hat.It was a surprise too back then to have such a flawed protagonist,and I should think its still a bit uncommon having a hero with sexual problems.So some of the impact the book had when it first came out is lost for you later readers.But I think McDermid has produced intriguing characters,and a good plot.She handles all the threads very well,and I have enjoyed this reread.Would I continue with them if I had the time.Possibly not,since I rarely reread suspense books-knowing what will happen takes away the suspense.But first time through I couldnt get enough of them.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Dusty that's the whole point of suspense books and as you say once know outcome not the same!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    The only ones I've re-read are those from the In Death series because they are so rich in secondary stories about the recurring characters. On occasion, there are some aspects about the cases that I didn't pick up the first time but it's mostly for that. I can think of no other in this genre that I would even consider re-reading.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Must aim to get to one of those very soon! You keep raving about them.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Monica 

    New Title

    

    What bothered me is that nobody took Carol very seriously and she was the one that came up with the killer being a transsexual/transgender and the computer search.

    And as much as I enjoyed the book, I wish they were closer to finding the killer earlier, than right at the end of the book.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

• 

  Andrew (edited)

  New Title

  

  Has anyone read any more books from the Tony Hill / Carol Jordan Series? If so which was your favourite book out of the seven?
  Has anyone read any of the Kate Brannigan or Lindsay Gordon Series, are they are worth a read?
  What about the stand alones?

  http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/m/val-mcdermid/

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  show 10 replies

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    This is my first book by McDermid.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Jonetta, thinking of Little David, have you seen she is publishing a picture book in July, My Granny is a Pirate!.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    McDermid? I'll check it out...

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Yep!

    Here's the link!

    http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/m/val-mcdermid/my-granny-is-pirate.htm

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    I found it on Shelfari, too. Thanks for the link as I kept getting server errors here.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Lauren B 

    New Title

    

    I also read A Place of Execution which is a stand alone. It was a pretty good mystery.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Thanks for this Lauren. :)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Have downloaded book 2 and 3 of the Tony Hills series from audible, now all I need is time to get to them! Got a queue of 6 audio books waiting and not even half way through Outlander! 40 minute drive to work used to be a right pain now need to find a job further away so I can listen for longer!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    Lol!!! I've been known to hover in my car after reaching my destination because of a good audiobook. I'm so glad it's making your commute more enjoyable...that's the point! And, you get to tackle your TBR shelf and add more:)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Kris 

    New Title

    

    So true...I was super tired this morning and so I could close my eyes but listen to a novel so I don't feel like I wasted prime reading time!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

• 

  dustydigger 

  New Title

  

  Read all except the latest-thought the series had finished! My favourites are The Last Temptation and The Torment of Others.All worth a read though.Wasnt keen on the Kate Brannigan series,about a female private detective a la Warshawski and Kinsey Milhone.But I have to admit P.I. books tend to bore me.The Lindsey Gordon books are similar,a reporter instead of a PI,but similar in style and content IMO.Stick to Hill and Jordan,they are her best books.

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  show 8 replies

  • 

    Jonetta (Ejaygirl) 

    New Title

    

    She has a new publisher, Atlantic Press, for this latest installment.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Thanks for this feedback Dusty.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Notice from Val MDermid's website she is touring America between 19th and 26th January.
    http://www.valmcdermid.com/pages/whatnew.html

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    dustydigger 

    New Title

    

    She looks a real toughie.I wouldnt want to start denigrating her books to her! lol

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    I don't think you'd do it twice!

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Lauren B 

    New Title

    

    Yes, she might set a serial killer on you...

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    dustydigger 

    New Title

    

    But she would probably beat you up herself first ;0

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Looking at the imagination in her books its how that would worry me! :)

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

• 

  Kris 

  New Title

  

  The TV show - Wire in the Blood (watched the 1st episode - The Mermaids Singing and half of 2nd episode - Shadows Rising)

  Sigh...I don't like it. It is slow moving and no one is like the book at all...harrumph. So am giving up on this show as there are others I would like to try.

  posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  show 3 replies

  • 

    Andrew 

    New Title

    

    Did wonder what you would think. Having read the book now - certainly the actors and characters don't seem to fit, and it didn't have the energy of the book.
    Not surprised by what you say.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Lauren B 

    New Title

    

    Maybe its because I saw the show before reading the book but I loved it. Robson Green's portrayal of Tony Hill is far more eccentric than in the book which I actually preferred.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

  • 

    Kris 

    New Title

    

    As I read the book first - it could be why I prefer the book version of Tony.

    posted 1 year ago. ( permalink )

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