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For anyone who likes to read Literature, History, Biographies,Classics, Politics, Mysteries, thrillers, spirituality and religion. Books that are interesting,popular and bring pleasure to one's life. No pornographic novels please.
  • Category: General | Melbourne | Started February 2009

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  • Darra W

    January 2011 Book of the Month: All Quiet on the Western Front

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    [<This book is to be neither an accusation nor a confession, and least of all not an adventure, for death is no adventure to those who stand face to face with it. It will try simply to tell of a generation of men who, even though they may have escaped shells, were destroyed by war.>]

    So reads the brief preface to the World War I novel, "All Quiet on the Western Front," by German-born author, Erich Maria Remarque, considered by many to be the greatest war novel of all time, and our pick to lead off the new year. I'll post a few discussion questions on January 20, but feel free to register any "spoiler free" comments in the meantime. Can't wait for the discussion to begin!

    Darra W started this discussion 2 years ago (edited). ( reply | permalink )

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  • Jane V
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    Interesting choice. I think I'll give it a try. :-)

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • BooknBlues
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    I'll try to do it, but have quite a few on the back burner. Read it in highschool and loved it....oh so many years ago.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Punxsutawney Paul
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    This is a favourite of mine. Well, in so far as any book about war can be great, anyway. I don't normally re-read books, but I may do in this case.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Marguerite M
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    I have been curious about this one. 2010 saw the most war books I have ever read: Red Badge of Courage and The Things They Carried. A genre I never thought I would read, so 2011 starts with a war story. I will love to see what everyone else thinks about it.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Kristen C
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    I've checked it out from the library - hopefully I'll finish it soon :)

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Jeremy D

    Jeremy D (edited)

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    My copy is a cloth-bound hardback published by Putnam in 1929, 12th UK reprint. It was translated by A W Wheen. Is this the edition we are reading? I read it twelve years ago but happy to re-read.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • Darra W
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      Edition doesn't matter, Jeremy. I'm glad you'll be joining us!

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • TheLibrarian

    TheLibrarian (edited)

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    I've just started reading this selection, and my first reaction was - I wonder how much of our discussion will be affected by our gender.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Darra W
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    I just finished and can't wait to discuss in earnest later this month.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • BooknBlues
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      I'm reading it now and it won't take me long to finish. It is as good as I remember.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • TheLibrarian
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      I'm looking forward to discussion as well, and hopefully I'll discover why this is considered a 'must-read.' Not wishing to be be contrary, but this one isn't doing anything for me.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Darra W
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      Not contrary at all! It's the different points of view that make these discussions enlightening and fun. I can't wait to hear what you have to say ;-)

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Amanda U. Badger
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    This is the book that changed who I was as a reader. I'm so excited to see it as this month's pick!

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Jane V
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    I ordered AQ on the WF through ILL, picked it up tonight, brought it home, just lay down to start reading it and discovered that what I have is, in fact, a literary companion to the book. Aaargh! Back to ILL to try again.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • TheLibrarian
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    Just a newbie question - when do you start your discussions? Are they free-form (people posting random comments) or structured?

    Thanks much

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • Darra W
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      You can post a comment or raise a question at any time, but we ask that you keep your postings spoiler-free until a certain date--usually around the 20th of the month--to allow everyone so inclined to read the book. At the time, the moderator (alternately Marguerite and I) will post a few discussion questions to stir the pot. From there on, anything goes! The discussion remains activeon the boards so long as there are still group members reading the book. Sometimes, a member will read the book months later, and the discussion will take on a whole new direction. It's fun!

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • rebelreader
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      Hey Darra,
      Went to Dave's warehouse sale today, and he gave me this awesome book for book club facilitators called "Read This Next". It lists recommendations for discussable book club choices by THEME. In the section on "War" of course, "All Quiet On the Western Front" was in there. It offers a few questions for discussion, and a couple of paragraphs on the author. Let me know if you want to take a look at it. Did you pick up a copy of "Papillon" yet?

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Darra W
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      Yes, please, Linda! I have a few questions in mind, but would love a few more ideas. There should be lots to discuss with this book.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • TheLibrarian
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    Repeating my earlier comment, I wonder how much our discussion of this book will be affected by whether we are male or female, and also our age. For the most part, women (in Europe and the US) weren't in direct combat situations until relatively recently. While we certainly have the indirect experience of sending family and loved ones off to fight, we ourselves haven't had to participate as soldiers. I find myself unable to really relate to some of the psychological expressions of the main character.....ex. the "esprit de corps" as well as the total trust needed in commanders and fellow soldiers.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • Marguerite M
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      Actually this past year I have read more war books that ever before. The Things They Carried, The Red Badge of Courage and now, I'm 2/3 through All Quiet on the Western Front. My thoughts on gender, are more how good a writer the author is. While reading The Things They Carried, I was right there in the marsh with those guys. I could almost feel the bullets tearing though me, it was that powerful. With All Quiet, the scene when he they had to put the gas masks on, I suddenly realized I was holding my breath. That's my two cents.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Darra W
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      I agree with Marguerite on this one: it's the skill of the writer and not the gender of the protagonist that made the difference for me. I was very moved by this book even though it is completely beyond my personal experience. I felt the same way when I read Killer Angels (Battle of Gettysburg) and Birdsong (World War I). However, I suspect others might agree with you, TheLibrarian.
      Anyone care to chime in?

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Jane V
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      I haven't read any other war books except for this one and Pat Barker's Regeneration trilogy (also about the psychological effects of WWI trench warfare). I can understand, Librarian, why you wouldn't be able to relate, as the experiences in All Quiet are pretty extreme. I'm not sure about the gender question...I do think of war as being more of a 'man thing' (sorry, guys), so it's quite possible certain men could put themselves in that situation more easily than a lot of women. Age could influence how the book affects you if you've lived through one of the 'big' wars that deeply affected a whole generation. I also think it would be easier for trauma survivors to understand the narrator's mindset, as that is basically what the book is about: a traumatic shared experience. I absolutely agree that the writer's ability can help you identify with the narrator, but the situation may just be too foreign for some people to relate, regardless of gender.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • BooknBlues
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      I actually like to read books about war, but I tend to like action/adventure, spy, mystery and suspense as well. I may not be all that keen on actual warfare, equipment etc. , but I am interested in the relationships and the psychology of survival.

      What I found with All Quiet on The Western Front is how incredibly relevant it is after all this time. We see all the time on the news about PTSD and it certainly addresses that as well as the disconnect that the soldiers feel with noncombatants.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Jeremy D
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      The skill of an author is to help you identify with their characters' situations and, in my view, gender doesn't come into it. I loved every moment of Louise May Alcott's 'Little Women' even if I couldn't identify with some of its activity. Similarly, you don't need to have sailed in a three-master, or have hunted whales, to appreciate Moby Dick.

      I have experienced combat but I'm not sure, in this case, that it gives me any advantage in understanding such a book if it is not written well in the first place. The concept 'esprit de corps' exists (or doesn't exist) in any large organisation: the only difference here is its relevance to the daily battle for survival not only against the enemy but against disease, infection and their own NCOs (or non coms as the phrase is translated in my version).

      Anyway, read it and finished yesterday and it has much less of an effect than the first time 25 years ago.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • BooknBlues
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      Jeremy, why did it have less impact on you now?

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Jeremy D
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      It had less effect on me now because of the proliferation, in the past 25 years, of fiction and non-fiction about World War I. Or maybe that I have just read much more about it. Either way, it was hard to be so shocked this time. The war affected so many, including my grandfather -- so you can add his personal narratives to the mix.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Darra W
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      Jeremy, I would love to hear some of your recommendations for good WWI fiction and non-fiction. I've realized that my knowledge about this period is fairly sketchy, and after reading this book, I'd like to learn more.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • James F
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    I started on this yesterday. Because one of my goals this year is to read twenty books not in English, I'm reading the German version (downloaded e-book). I've read a good deal of German (though a long time ago) but mostly nonfiction and eighteenth century classics, so a modern novel at this level with all the military slang and informal speech is a challenge. I'm glad I decided this though, because when I tried using my English copy (Fawcett Crest paperback, 1958) that I would have been reading as a "crib", I discovered that although it nowhere says it's abridged, it's actually very much expurgated. For example, in the first chapter, it has "The mail has come, and almost every man has a couple of letters. Kropp pulls out one; 'Kantorek sends you all his best wishes.'" without any indication that those two sentences are separated by more than two pages about latrines and the soldiers' attitudes toward bodily functions, which I think is an important passage for understanding the book. Be sure you're not reading an expurgated edition, because there was no indication of that anywhere in the English book.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • TheLibrarian
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      Excellent observations James - perhaps the translation is what I'm finding so unappealing about this book. Unfortunately I don't read German.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Jeremy D
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    My version of the translation has the latrine section which is very amusing and a key passage (pun intended!).

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • Darra W

      Darra W (edited)

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      Mine too. I read the A.W. Wheen translation.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Darra W

    Darra W (edited)

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    Looks like we are off and running on this discussion! Here are a few other questions to consider, each in a separate post. Additional questions to follow.

    <This book is to be neither an accusation nor a confession, and least of all not an adventure, for death is no adventure to those who stand face to face with it. It will try simply to tell of a generation of men who, even though they may have escaped shells, were destroyed by war.>

    How faithful was Remarque to his brief preface, quoted above?

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • Marguerite M
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      I think that it followed very closely. I certainly never thought the narrator was bragging or complaining. Just trying to explain how things were. What was amazing to me was I never got the feeling he hated the people he was fighting against. You just get the feeling he is there because he had to be with no real understanding about what the war was about.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Kristen C
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      I think it was a story of the evolution of a soldier - the only blame I noticed in the story was that of the "commanding" officer who treated the recruits so poorly. It was more of a statement of how out of touch with the realities of war were the commanders.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Jeremy D
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      It was true to his purpose. I saw it as a triumph of group loyalty and comradeship in the face of intolerable conditions, the triumph of good sense and decency despite extreme provocation (the beating up of the the NCO excepted, perhaps!).

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • James F
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      I think it was very much an accusation, against those on both sides who caused the war, against the entire militarist system. Certainly there was no hatred of the soldiers on the other side; rather a sense that they were all equally victims.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Darra W

    Darra W (edited)

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    How well does the novel hold up given the evolution in warfare since WWI? How might the book be different were it written about the Vietnam conflict or Operation Desert Storm?

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • Marguerite M
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      I hope and pray we can say the medical conditions are much improved today. Unfortunately the weapons that kill are also much bigger and can kill more people at once. I think the personal side could be told today. When you hear from soldiers in Iraq etc they talk about trying to find things to do for fun in the down time and then the next day face a deadly shoot out. I also think that no solider goes through war unmarked. Every person carries it with themselves on some level. Some find peace, others never really do.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Darra W

      Darra W (edited)

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      Sometimes, I think warfare has become increasingly more depersonalized: more bombs dropping from a distance, less hand-to-hand combat...the kind where you can see the face of the human being you are killing. Can you be programmed to kill more easily when you never see your victim(s), never look into his/her eyes? Sometimes I think so, and yet, the continued incidence and severity of post-combat PSTD would seem to contradict that.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Dog Lover - very limited time online for the foreseeable future
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      But are those diagnosed with PTSD from the "remote" weapons users sections? Probably not. There is also a marked difference in experiencing guerrilla warfare (of the late years) and the comparatively-speaking straight forward wars of the early 20th century.

      In addition, there wasn't a name - "PTSD" - for the condition in earlier conflicts. That condition, though, was marked especially in the British forces that dealt longest and most often with the Kaiser's gas. Some terms used were "shell-shocked" which covered a variety of war-related psychological trauma.

      There were some very interesting studies done on pilots from the Viet Nam war - those that never had to "touch down" had a completely different memory of that tragic time than those who, for what ever reason, had been forced to see what those bombs did in an up-close-and-personal way. They also had a very different perspective of Westmoreland's "cannon fodder/body count" method of measuring progress in that shameful period.

      DL

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • TheLibrarian
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      I've read much more non-fiction about war and the military. One thing that struck me immediately with the Remarque novel and more recent conflicts is the more impersonal nature of today's warfare. At least from WW1 and earlier opposing sides were more "face-to-face." Now, you can kill people at such a distance that you'll never know who or how many. I would expect it to be more difficult to deal with to see the person you're killing up close and personal.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Darra W
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      Good points, Dog Lover.
      As a child, I remember hearing that "so and so" suffered from "shell-shock" as a result of his experiences "in the war." I always wondered what that could possibly mean if the person were still standing. It wasn't until much later, when the term PSTD became more common, that I realized shell-shock had little, if anything, to do with the body, but referred to the mental and emotional scars left by the fighting.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Darra W
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    How would you describe Paul's transformation? At what point in the novel did you first detect the change?

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • Marguerite M
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      When he went on leave. He suddenly realized he no longer had anything in common with the people from his town. How do you go back to a life of normalcy after such absolute chaos? After watching each of his friends die or become disabled it seemed like he just wanted to do the job until it was done. I believe Kat dying might have been the last straw. He just lost himself at that point.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Darra W
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      One quote that particularly struck (and saddened) me appears when Paul is home on leave, paying his call on Kimmerich's mother: "When a man has seen so many dead, he cannot understand any longer why there should be so much anguish over a single individual." I believe that progressive desensitization is one of the greatest and most horrifying casualties of war, as it impacts the humanity of an entire generation.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • TheLibrarian
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      These quotes (from pg. 21-22 of the Wheen translation) revealed for me that Paul and his friends in short order were not the innocent youths they once were after enlisting:

      "Once it was different. When we went to the district commandant to enlist, we were a class of twenty young men, many of whom proudly shaved for the first time before going to the barracks. We had no definite plans for our future. Our thoughts of a career and occupation were as yet of too unpractical a character to furnish any scheme of life. We were still crammed full of vague ideas which gave to life, and to the war also an ideal and almost romantic character. We were trained in the army for ten weeks and in this time more profoundly influenced than by ten years at shool." ..... "After three weeks it was no longer incomprehensible to us that a braided postman should have more authority over us than had formerly our parents, our teachers, and the whole gamut of culture from Plato to Goethe."

      A few pages further he notes that "We became hard, suspicious, pitiless, vicious, tough - and that was good; for these attributes were just what we lacked. Had we gone into the trenches without this period of training most of us would certainly have gone mad. Only thus were we prepared for what awaited us." The novel then reveals what awaited them.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Kristen C
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      That's when I noticed his change as well - but what struck me most was his reaction to the people of the town who still held on to their views of what war is while Paul noticed his differing attitude towards war. I'll post the pages and quotes when I get my laptop back.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Kristen C
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      Do you think he put himself in harms way at the end of the book on purpose -I just found it ironic that after all of the "war" he had seen, that he was killed on a day that was reported as quiet.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Darra W
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      Interesting that you should raise this question, Kristin. I jotted down notes and quotes as I read, but by the time I reached the final chapter, right before we learn of Paul's fate, I simply wrote the word "despair!" I began to wonder if he might CHOOSE not to return home.

      But then, in his last statement, Paul says: "I am very quiet. Let the months and the years come, they can take nothing more. I am so alone, so without hope that I can confront them without fear. The life that has borne me through these years is still in my hands and eyes. Whether I have subdued it, I know not. But so long as it is there it will seek its own way out, heedless of the will that is within me." While those seem to me the words of one who has lost his faith, washed his hands, and surrendered his life to the fates, I'm not certain it is the statement a man about to commit "passive" suicide would make. I think Remarque used Paul's death on a quiet day in the last weeks of the war, when the outcome was a foregone conclusion, to put the final (ironic) punctuation on the randomness, the futility, the waste.

      I'm really enjoying the conversations we are having about this book. So many new participants, so many new voices. Why do you suppose THIS book has drawn such response...our best BOM discussion ever?

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Marguerite M
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      My thought is a small part because we are in war right now. It's always normal to look back and see what happened in the past as a way of looking toward the future. We have survived all of them, so we will survive this one. I also think war is one of those topics that everyone has some thoughts and feelings about. It's a universal condition that connect and binds us together. Of course lets not forget this book was really well written and really brings into the story. I can't imagine finishing this book and having nothing to say, but that's my feelings.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • rebelreader
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      I didn't read the book Darra, since I had just joined and had so much reading to do for our other book club, and the club at the book store, HOWEVER, I'm enjoying everyone's thoughts on the book. I LOVE that quote that you recaptured here. It sounds like something I would have underlined! Great minds think alike! "...let the months and years come, they can take nothing more". That really is despair!

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Marguerite M
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    All in all this was an amazing book. I don't usually choose war books myself, but I'm glad I have read this. The last two I read; The Things They Carried and The Red Badge of Courage did the same thing as this book did. It just drops you right into that world. I can't even imagine in my wildest thoughts what it would be like to be in the middle of a battle. It takes more than blood, sweat, and tears away...it tears the soul. There is a movie based on this book. Has anyone seen it? Is it terribly violent? I would be curious, but I won't watch Saving Private Ryan because I have heard it is very violent and I just can't watch that stuff.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • rebelreader
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      'Saving Private Ryan' is an incredible movie, BUT, if you don't like violence, you've made the right call! I was disturbed by that movie for weeks!! I just joined this group and didn't have time to read this book, but I'm enjoying all of your comments. I myself, love war novels as long as they're well written. I've had "Matterhorn", which is a novel of the Viet Nam war, sitting on one of my many TBR shelves calling out my name for almost a year! It's a long one though so I keep putting it off. It received glowing reviews. One person claimed '...move over Tim O'Brien!'. Well, I don't know about THAT, but I'll soon find out. Can't wait to see what you guys pick next...

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Judy S

      Judy S (edited)

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      Matterhorn is an astonishing book. I think it took the author 30 years to write. I don't know why every soldier who serves in combat isn't mentally unstable afterwards. It was difficult to read about it, much less experience it.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Darra W
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      Reading "All Quiet..." has definitely piqued my interest in reading "Matterhorn," a book I might have allowed to slip by before. I'm slowly discovering that a really well-written book about war can be much more than "machismo and mayham," but can be an elevating and thought-provoking reading experience. So much for that old prejudice!

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • TheLibrarian

    TheLibrarian (edited)

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    Given the horrors of war, I'd assume soldiers in WWI also suffered from Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) but it went undiagnosed and consequently untreated.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • Dog Lover - very limited time online for the foreseeable future
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      Gas was used as a weapon in the "Big" one - much of what we would call PTSD resulted.

      DL

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • TheLibrarian
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      Just an aside about PTSD - I recently watched a documentary on elephants. One of the most memorable segments was on culling of herds and the PTSD-like effects on the elephants that witness that. Baby and adolescent elephants particularly have life-long psychological and physiological effects afterwards.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • TheLibrarian
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    What are the qualities of a "good soldier" and a "good military officer?" How do the main characters in this novel measure up?

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • Darra W

      Darra W (edited)

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      Excellent question, and one I'll need to think about before I respond. I read Michael Shaara's Pulitzer-prizewinning "Killer Angels" (about the Battle of Gettysburg) shortly before I read "All Quiet..." and contemplated the same questions.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Punxsutawney Paul
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    I'm finding it hard to contribute to this thread. The book moved me very much. But my attempts to write about that keep failing. It's all too horrible. It's perhaps more moving for being written from the German point of view. The main character avoids thinking about the big picture at all, but when he does he believes his side are simply defending the fatherland.

    It's easy to get desensitised to war. Computer games glamorise it, as do movies, & even the news. But a book like this helps to remind that real people are involved. And the other side are as human as we are.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • Darra W
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      Paul, I am so glad you said this. I get very emotional about what I see as the desensitization of our society, especially our young people. To me, computer games are among the worst offenders...oh heavens, don't get me started!

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Marguerite M
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      It's funny you say that Darra, because I have been saying for years that video games etc don't contribute. My small data included myself and friends who watched Three Stoodges etc and came out ok. Then someone explained to me and I concern is it's the raw imagery that kids today are exposed to. I was watching commercial for a game and was shocked by the level of violence just for a 30 second advertisement. I also think it's our language. If you stop and listen, our daily conversations our just dripping with violence. It is sad.

      Paul, for someone who was struggling with writing something down, I think you were quite eloquent.

      I think what really made this book a story about war in general and not just us vs them is I forgot these were German soldiers. Until he said something like those French or English, I just didn't think about countries. I just thought about the horrors the soldiers faced.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Kristen C
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    I agree with Marguerite - but I had a hard time separating Hitler's Germany from this WWI Germany... especially when Paul was in the hospital and the doctor wanted to fix another soldier's flat feet. The discussion of the the soldiers as laboratory studies made me think more of Hitler then Kaiser.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • James F
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    I finished this tonight; just a few random observations.

    World War I produced some of the best war novels -- or more precisely antiwar novels -- I think because it was not only one of the most horrible wars in history, with the trench warfare, but one of the most senseless, and the soldiers soon understood that. The passage after the Kaiser's visit when they discuss what they are fighting for, and who was responsible for the war, I think is key: none of them can really figure it out, none of them thinks they are fighting for anything worthwhile, they say they are fighting to defend their country but then recognize that the French are fighting to defend their country as well. There was really nothing to choose between the two sides; the English and French propaganda said they were fighting against "German militarism", but they were fighting on the same side as Czarist Russia, which was far less democratic than Germany or Austria even under the Kaisers. It was almost transparently a war for markets and colonies; it's no accident that it resulted in a revolution in Russia and an unsuccessful one in Germany.

    Comparing World War I with World War II, in the later war there was much more feeling of fighting for something; the Germans had real grievances for their treatment after Versailles, and mostly believed in Hitler's ideology, while of course -- whatever the real aims of the allied governments -- the allied soldiers considered that they were fighting against the very real evil of Naziism. This is why, in my opinion, the literature from World War II is much more superficial, more "heroic" and "patriotic" in tone; in fact most of the good literature from or about the period of WW2 deals with the Holocaust rather than with the war per se. I interrupted my reading of Doris Lessing's autobiography to read this in time for the discussion; but the first chapter of that talks about the effects of WW1, which she claims, I think rightly, shaped the twentieth century -- she describes going to France in 1992 and looking at the War monuments in the small villages, and reports that in each village there is a list of twenty or thirty names from WW1, sometimes all the young men of a village, and on the other side, one or two names from WW2. Of course, WW2 had about four times the number of dead as WW1 (ca. 40 million vs. 10 million), but it was fought all around the world, where WW1 was concentrated in Europe, and with a smaller population. She also points out, what I had never realized, that in the year after the armistice, about 30 million people died of famine and epidemics, especially influenza, so the total was about the same as WW2.

    I think this is one important aspect of the novel to point out, that while it is "about" the war and ends just before the Armistice, in a sense it is also about the results: the beginning epigraph talks about a whole generation destroyed, even if they did not die in the trenches, and throughout the book there is an emphasis on how the soldiers will not fit in after the peace, about how they are permanently changed and psychologically maimed. There is also the constant discussion of disillusionment and betrayal. The effects of WW1 were long lasting, and in a real sense the rise of Hitler and thus WW2 were a direct result of WW1.

    Both my grandfathers fought in WW1, and both were gassed; one mostly recovered (although he eventually died of lung disease) but the other was a permanent invalid. I remember him always sitting in his rocking chair, obviously weak and sick, not really talking to anyone, and always in and out of the VA hospital. (Ironically, he had been an athlete, who just before the war was about to be signed by the NY Yankees.) Again I return to the Lessing autobiography, and the semiautobiographical Children of Violence series that I just finished rereading, because Lessing's father, and the father of the main character in the novels, reminded me so much of my grandfather -- both the real and fictional fathers were always ill, never really related to anyone, were obsessed by their war experiences, etc. I think this is true of many of the returned veterans of that war. On the other hand, my father and his brothers, and my other uncles, who all fought in WW2, never talked about it much, seemed to forget it and get on with their lives. Vietnam perhaps is a closer analogy to WW1, except that the Vietnam vets were a much smaller percentage of the population.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • Darra W

      Darra W (edited)

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      James, Your comments are illuminating, as always. Thank you so much for reminding us of the broader definition of "the lost generation," for articulating so clearly the differences in WWI and WWII literature, and for filling in some of the background as to why and how those differences may have come about. Although the legacy of war is always heartbreaking, I've also felt that there is, perhaps, a stronger correlation between WWI and Vietnam than the two WWs in terms of the effect on its veterans.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Jeremy D
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      We divide the world wars in to I, II and a Cold War and now Muslim Extremism. We have been continuously at war since 1914. Quite a few historians see Versailles as so punitive that World War II was inevitable, with or without Nazism. The Holocaust also allow us a cause celebre to hide behind, disguising the anti-Semitism in the US and UK that allowed us the luxury of believing we fought against 'evil'.

      One of the themes in 'All Quiet...', is a very strong anti-militaristic thread, a militarism which takes in swathes of Western economies and what Marxists call the military-industrial complex.

      Our leaders love wars. They mask all sorts of anti-democratic practices at home by rallying everyone to a common cause...killing some other nation-state. All quiet is a scream for deliverance, not from our enemies, but for a common humanity and from governments which stay in power on the back of human casualties and monopolistic profit from armaments.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • TheLibrarian
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      Please clarify for me "We have been continuously at war since 1914." It is my understanding that we are not technically "at war" unless war has been officially declared. Hence the designation of The Vietnam Conflict. In reality is was warfare, but technically never declared as such.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • Marguerite M
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      Jeremy what an excellent observation. It's sad that we still just can't seem to discuss our differences without the need for violence. I'm always amazed that the most peaceful people are killed in the most violent ways. Such as Martin Luther King, Ghandi, ok, lets go all the way back to Jesus, it seems the people who speak the loudest for peace end up paying the price for our lack of it. War is just a larger scale of our lean toward violence.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • James F
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      Jeremy makes very good points, which I agree with. World War II was essentially a continuation of WWI, which in some respects was a continuation of the Franco-Prussian War, and Korea and Vietnam among others were a continuation of WWII. I think WWII can be analyzed as a number of wars running in parallel: the war between the western powers, the war against the USSR, the resistance movements against the German occupation, and the colonial wars against both sides for independence all had different motives which weren't always compatible. The history books and the "literature" mainly concentrate on the first, governmental side, but I think that is the least interesting aspect. War is endemic to the present economic system. As von Clauswitz says, diplomacy is just war by other means, and the "Cold War" and the "War on Terror" show how fluid the line can be.

      Librarian: The reality is one thing, the legality is something else. The US government since WWII -- Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq -- has deliberately refrained from following the constitution in regards to declaring war; Congress would obviously have declared war on Afghanistan after Sept. 11 as unanimously as it passed the Patriot Act, but President Bush chose not to follow that course, because it would have set a precedent of returning the war power to Congress. But as you say, legal or illegal they were still warfare.

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • TheLibrarian
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      Preface to my question - I am not trying to be a PITA. I'm what one would refer to has "history challenged" in that I haven't paid much attention to it until recent years, and my reading retention in that field is less than desirable. That being said, doesn't the aggression between Japan and China have more to do with continuing tensions in Asia (and thus Korea and Vietnam conflicts) than what happened in WWI and the European theater of WWII?

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • Marguerite M
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    I can't get the scene with Paul and the French soldier he stabbed and then tried to help. I actually cried. I have said before that if the people who declared wars had to actually go fight them perhaps we would have a lot less war. It was touching and sad.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • ~KalyDawn~
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    I'm about 1/3 of the way through, but I've decided to stop listening to the aduiobook of All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Maria Remarque because I'm not giving it a fair chance due to the prejudice I've developed from reading The Invisible Bridge by Julie Orringer. The story in The Invisible Bridge is from the perspective of a young Hungarian Jew at the start of The Second World War. The atrocities the characters face in The Invisible Bridge are too fresh. This seems unfair to me because All Quiet on the Western Front is well written and thought provoking so it is worth reading but not in my current frame of mind. So I'm putting this back on my TBR shelf and will pick up later this year when the pain for The Invisible Bridge has lessened.

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
  • rebelreader
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    KalyDawn, Interesting what you had to say about "The Invisible Bridge", it's been on my TBR list for over a year. I can't believe that I keep putting it off, I loved her short stories. The copy I have is even an advance, that's how long it's been sitting there. But I'm ready to dig in now. But tell me, aside from it's being painful, did you like the book, find it compelling? I've heard nothing but rave reviews from critics. Just wondering what a fellow Shelfari reader like myself thinks...

    posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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    • ~KalyDawn~
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      Yes, I really like the book. Orringer has a way of making you feel like your the narrator's best friend, as if you're sitting besides Andras and Tibor as they try to figure things out. The "pain" is so real yet because it is historical fiction you know what is likely to happen so hoping for the best is hard. That's what makes this so hard. I'm not completely familiar with Hungarian Jews but we've all heard the horror stories so how can it end well? I've been told to grab a box of tissue while I read the last Part and I'm ready. I'm only on Chapter 32, almost to the end of Part 4 so I know the horror is about to begin and I think knowing that makes it more painful. Regardless... yes it is an excellent read. One I highly recommend! If I was a history teacher, teaching WWII I would definitely use this to illustrate some of the things happening in Europe from the perspective of a Jew. Since I'm not done with the book, I can't say more about it but from where I am, I really like it. Happy Reading!

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
    • rebelreader
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      Thanks for the info. Since I asked you about it, one of my book clubs has chosen it for April/May. So I'll have to wait another couple of months, but that's okay, I'll get to read it with a great group of friends! And it's hardly like I have nothing else to read, right?

      posted 2 years ago. ( permalink )
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