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  State of Wonder -- Discussion

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  These discussion questions come from a set provided by the publisher; answer as many or as few as you like at your leisure. The last question asks what you want to say. It is your opportunity to make a point the questions didn't cover, or even post your own review.
  
  And, there are sure to be spoilers!

  Don K. started this discussion 11 months ago. ( reply | permalink )

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  Don K. 

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  1. “Marina was from Minnesota. No one ever believed that. At the point when she could have taken a job anywhere she came back because she loved it here. This landscape was the one she understood, all prairie and sky.” What does this description say about the character? How would you describe Marina Singh?

  posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Don K. (edited)

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    Marina's life was as empty as (Patchett's view of) Minnesota. On pg 45, Patchett elaborates:

    "Like her mother and all her mother's people before her, those inexhaustible blondes who staked their claims in verdant prairies, Marina was cut from Minnesota, the soil and the starry night. Instead of growing up inquisitive and restless, she had developed a profound desire to stay, as if her center of gravity was so low it connected her directly to this particular patch of earth."

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    As sort of an aside, I've really started to notice how many authors make disparaging remarks about the people living in the center of this country. I'm not sure that Patchett intended for her descriptions of Minnesota to be critical but I think they were.

    Marina had lived her life in reaction to one mistake. Her life was based on fear. Interestingly, I didn't think Marina was likely to stay in Minnesota.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Denizen (edited)

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    I'm laughing, Don, very well said, but I'm not sure that I particularly agree. I thought Patchett was describing a person with deep roots, someone who felt connected to the land around her. She was a bright woman who went out in the world but, when push came to shove, she loved the place where she grew up.

    So you agree with Annik, Jill? You think things won't be the same and Marina will return to the Amazon?

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Well, I think Patchett certainly made it likely that Marina will end up pregnant! I thought that she was not likely to slip back into the life she'd been living which was a rather passive one. I can't imagine her relationship with Mr. Fox continuing and there didn't seem to be much left for her in Minnesota. Also, she seemed to have gotten over her fear. Wasn't much of Marina's life based on fear? That was why she went into research rather than treating patients and why she spent her time with Mr. Fox. Marina seemed to come alive in the Amazon.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Denizen 

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    Well, Marina may certainly end up pregnant. Patchett never addressed whether the Lakashi are more fertile or merely fertile for longer.

    Does Marina have to leave Minnesota in order to dump Mr Fox? IMO, you don't have to relocate in order to shed a bad lover. I never saw her life as empty. Granted, she changed careers because of a mistake during her residency, she still feels guilt about that child, but that doesn't mean her prior life was empty. We simply weren't shown it because that isn't what the book was about.

    I don't think Patchett wrote the book with a sequel in mind - I think she intended to leave us in a "state of wonder".

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    I agree that she didn't write it with a sequel in mind but it just seemed to suggest one. Perhaps that was intentional. No story is ever really finished. I thought there was a suggestion or implication that Marina had not really achieved as much as she could have while living in Minnesota. Certainly she doesn't have to move to rid herself of Mr. Fox but didn't it seem that she'd changed enough that she seemed unlikely to just fit back into her old life?

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Denizen 

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    Yes, and shedding the lover that is higher than you in the organization certainly would make staying at your job more difficult.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Don K. 

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  2. What drew Marina to her old mentor, Annik Swenson? Describe the arc of Marina and Annik’s relationship from the novel’s beginning to its end. Do you like these women? Did your opinion of them change as the story unfolded? Why didn’t Marina ever tell anyone the full story of her early experience with Annick?

  posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Bear Warrior 

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    When Marina was performing the c-section on Dr. Swenson, I thought of a quote I learned this year in English: Sometimes you have to go a long way out in order to come a short way back. So, Marina's adult life began as a student of Dr. Swenson's delivering babies, and in the end she was in the same place as before, but delivering Dr. Swenson's baby (that was dead). I like Marina, but I think that we could have learned more about her and gotten to know her even better had Patchett described her emotions, thoughts, and actions at some crucial points more. There is a lot of room for speculation, and that is what we have to do in order to understand the characters. At times I do like Annick, yet overall she is a tough, independent, hard headed female scientist who rose to a challenge at at time when female scientists were very uncommon.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Don K. 

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  3. Consider Annik’s research in the Amazon. Should women of any age be able to have children? What are the benefits and the downsides? Why does this ability seem to work in the Lakashi culture? What impact does this research ultimately have on Marina? Whether you are a man or woman, would you want to have a child in your fifties or sixties? How far should modern science go to “improve” on nature?

  posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    I cannot imagine choosing to have a child in my 50's or 60's. I think it's a pretty risky thing to do for the child too. It seems a waste of the world's resources to me for elderly women to have treatments to give birth to a child.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Don K. (edited)

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    One of the reasons Lakashi women continue to have babies is that those babies are cared for by an extended family, sometimes including daughters and grand daughters. Cultural norms adapted to biological realities.

    One of the problems for Marina is that she seems isolated in Minnesota. If she had a child and returned to the Amazon, I suspect the Lakashi would care for both Marina and her child.

    As for Annick's research, I don't know why Marina thinks it will be unfunded once Vogel finds out that Annick's pregnancy did not result in a viable fetus. Annick is 73 after all; the drug may be effective for other, younger women.

    And, I don't know why they seem to think no one would pay for an anti-malarial. The US Army paid an enormous amount to develop Larian; I suspect they would pay just as much for Annick's anti-malarial. Or the World Health Organization would pay or the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation ...

    When he learns of the test results, Mr. Fox should go to the Board of Trustees and tell them: "I've got good news and I've got even better news. The good news is that the drug actually helped a 73 year old woman, Dr. Swenson, become pregnant. The even better news is that the drug also appears to have anti-malarial applications which should allow us to recapture some or all of our development costs and provide another significant income stream in the future."

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Denizen (edited)

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    I'm with you, Jill. The world's resources can be better spent. Raising a child requires a tremendous amount of energy and I know I no longer have the energy to do it.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Don K. (edited)

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    When I read this question I thought of the similarities between the fictional Marina and the real Ann Patchett, both childless and in their forties. Unlike Marina, Patchett does not want a child, never did, as she explained to the Guardian newspaper:

    “Now an elegant 47, Patchett has reached an age when people have stopped questioning her decision not to be a mother, but she remains indignant at the memory: ‘I never wanted children, never, not for one minute, and it has been the greatest gift of my life that even as a young person I knew. It freed me up tremendously. Children are wonderful but they're not for everybody, and yet it never stopped. To constantly have people tell me that I didn't know my own mind and I didn't know my body was kind of outrageous.’” (the guardian June 10th, 2011)

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Don K. 

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  4. In talking about her experiences with the indigenous people, Annik explains, “the question is whether or not you choose to disturb the world around you; or if you choose to go on as if you had never arrived. Would you rather make a “disturbance” in life, or go along quietly?

  posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Bear Warrior 

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    I would rather make a disturbance in the lives of the people around me than go along living as though I never existed.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Hmmm, well, obviously, making a disturbance would be better but I'm not sure that's the word I would choose!

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Bear Warrior 

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    I agree. Maybe, "make an impact" or "be imprinted in the memories of people"

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Don K. (edited)

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    It seems to me Annick's "disturbances" are the result of her remarkable self-absorption and general disregard for the well being and feelings of others.

    Consider her conduct in Manaus,, or her affair with Rapp, or the letter announcing Anders' death, or her relationship with the Lakashi (they seem to understand her even though she can't understand them), or her relationship with Easter (Annick believes Easter belongs to her pg 245).

    I think Annick is a diva, not unlike the divas in the world of opera. Everyone can admire their artistry and skill but no one wants to deal with them. Divas live for their music just as Annick lives for her science.

    I think divas are a problem. For example, by her own admission, if Annick had been bitten by a snake or run over by a taxi in Manaus six months earlier, everything would have been lost. And, I think modern science is better when scientists cooperate ("peer review" for example), just as operas are better with a full cast.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Annick was incredibly self-absorbed. I agree, such people are problems. There's nothing wrong with being wrapped up in one's work but some basic human understanding goes a long way.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Denizen 

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    Annick was extremely internally referenced - to a fault, I would say. What I found interesting was how much other people accepted what she said and followed her. Her utter confidence in her own decisions brooked no doubt.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Don K. 

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  5. Though the scientists try not to interfere with the natives’ way of life, how does their being there impact the Lakashi? What influence do the Lakashi have on the scientists?

  posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Don K. 

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    I don't think the scientists tried very hard not to interfere with the natives' way of life. They just didn't do anything to improve the natives' way of life.

    For example, Dr. Saturn had no problems infecting the men of the tribe with malaria in exchange for Coca Cola. "If they get sick for a couple of days in the name of developing a drug that could protect the entire tribe, the entire world, then I say so be it." (pg 295)

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Don K. 

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  6. What role does nature and the natural world—the jungle, the Amazon River—play in Marina’s story? How does the environment influence the characters—Marina, Annik, Milton, Anders, Easter, and the others? Would you be able to live in the jungle as the researchers and natives do?

  posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Bear Warrior 

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    I think that being in that environment whittled the characters down to their animal core and their innate need for survival. I think I could live in the jungle like the researchers and natives. Maybe more so like the researchers and only like the natives after I had gotten used to it.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Don K. 

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    With her Norwegian-from-Minnesota mother and her Indian-from-Calcutta father, Marina is the product of two worlds. As the story opens, Marina has embraced the sterile, civilized world and rejected the natural world. As the story progresses, Marina learns to accept the natural world and finally to immerse herself in it.

    I particularly liked the description of Marina's introduction to the forest as she tries to take a nap (pg 173): "The quiet that was left without her was layered,subtle: at first Marina heard it only as silence, the absence of human voices, but once her ear had settled into it the other sounds began to rise, the deep forested chirping, the caw that came from the tops of trees, the chattering of lower primates, the incessant sawing of insect life. It was not unlike the overture of the opera in which the well-trained listener could draw forth the piccolos, the soft French horn, a single meaningful viola."

    Reminded me of this NPR interview: http://www.npr.org/2011/04/22/135634388/listening-to-wild-soundscapes

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Denizen 

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    I thought that was a beautiful passage, too, Don.

    I saw the jungle closing in as emblematic of the closed society the scientists were living in.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Don K. 

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  7. Marina travels into hell, into her own Conradian “heart of darkness.” What keeps her in the jungle longer than she’d ever thought she’d stay? How does this journey transform her and her view of herself and the world? Will she ever return—and does she need to?

  posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Denizen 

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    Initially Marina stays because she has lost her baggage and can't communicate with the outer world. She also wants to learn the answers to the questions she came to investigate. She is relentlessly forced to confront her fears (performing c-sections and visiting cannibals) and make decisions on the ethicality of the other scientists' actions such as infecting natives with malaria and hiding information from Vogel.

    The experience transforms her but I don't think that transformation necessitates her return. Maybe, maybe not.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Don K. 

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    I think one of the things which kept her in the jungle longer than she ever thought she would stay was the bark itself.

    "She was fairly certain there was some other quality in the bark that no one was talking about and she knew she wasn't going to make it through this particular day day without it. She thought of how she would come out here on her last day and saw off a few branches from the trees on the farthest edge of the perimeter. She would saw them into smaller and smaller pieces and tie them together with twine and she would bring them back with her, a little something for herself. She pictured herself in her kitchen, a freezer full of twigs, taking them out only when she needed one, sitting alone in her living room scraping the bark down with her teeth, ...." (pg 314)

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Don K. 

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  8. What is your opinion of the choices Marina made regarding Easter? What role did the boy play in the story? Do you think Marina will ever have the child—one like Easter—that she wants?

  posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M (edited)

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    I think the point is that Marina will end up pregnant after chewing those leaves and then having her moment with Anders! It seemed to yell "sequel" to me. As for Easter, I was surprised that she gave him back as easily as she did. Poor Easter belonged there but didn't know it. Annick was a pretty selfish person.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    There were a lot of resurrections in this book, weren't there? Easter's name made me think of it which ties back to your comment, Don, about the names used in this book.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Denizen 

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    An interesting tangent is that in our society, Easter would most likely be returned to his true parents.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Do you think it is a bad thing that Easter was returned to his parents? They clearly loved him. I'm not sure what I think. It certainly would have been terrifying for him to end up with the cannibals.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    katrina E. 

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    I think Marina's giving up Easter to his
    parents was symbolic of her giving up
    the Amazon so abruptly. She made a
    clean break and left him and the Amazon
    where they originally were.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Oh, good point, Katrina. I saw it as a child who was thought dead was returned to his family.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Denizen 

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    Annik thought Easter would not be able to adjust to our culture - true or self-serving since she wanted to keep Easter with her and didn't want to leave the Amazon?

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Interesting that the options considered for Easter was to take him to Minnesota to fix his hearing or to remain in the Amazon with Annik but it took Marina to come up with a completely different option that returned him to his beginning.

    Don, the more we discuss this book, the more I agree with you that Patchett was using the character names to tell us things.

    posted 9 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Don K. 

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  9. What do you think happens to Marina after she returns home?

  posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    I think she's going to be pregnant. I don't think anything more will happen with Anders. Hopefully, she breaks up with the lousy excuse for a boyfriend!

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Denizen 

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    If she is not pregnant, she will problably get pregnant. She wants a child. Her relationship with Fox is over, perhaps not immediately. "It was probably better that he didn't look at her, that he didn't take her aside and whisper his true plan in her ear. If he loved her now, it would only be sadder later on when he realized that she had lied to him along with all the others. He would leave her once the whole thing fell apart. It might be years, but once he understood that he was holding a malaria vaccine instead of a drug for fertility and that she had known it and done nothing to stop it, nothing to save him, he would break with her in every possible way." (Pg 313)

    Marina has changed. They will not be able to recreate what they had after she returns, IMO.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Don K. 

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  10. What is the significance of the novel’s title, State of Wonder?

  posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Don K. 

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  11. State of Wonder raises questions of morality and principle, civilization, culture, love, and science. Choose a few events from the book to explore some of these themes.

  posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Don K. (edited)

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    I was uncomfortable with Patchett’s descriptions of Lakashi, and Brazil generally. They reminded me of Joseph Conrad’s descriptions of Africans and Africa in Heart of Darkness; and, like Conrad’s descriptions, I think they could be characterized as racist.

    Conrad’s foremost modern critic has been the African author Chinua Achebe who observed that Conrad denied the Africans in Heart of Darkness any form of human expression, including language and that Conrad used Africa as “the antithesis of Europe and therefore of civilization”. (Achebe, An Image of Africa: Racism in Conrad’s Heart of Darkness)

    In response to a question about the artistic merits of Conrad’s Heart of Darkness, Achebe continued: “Although he's writing good sentences, he's also writing about a people, and their life. And he says about these people that they are rudimentary souls... The Africans are the rudimentaries, and then on top are the good whites. Now I don't accept that, as a basis for... As a basis for anything.”

    It seems to me Patchett has done something very similar in State of Wonder. She has deprived the Lakashi of any form of human expression. Her Amazon (Marina had been sent to hell … pg 124) is the antithesis of civilization (Eden Prairie). In State of Wonder, the Lakashi are rudimentaries and on top are the good scientists.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Good points, Don. I think you articulated something about the book that I felt but couldn't identify. There weren't really any strong, identifiable characters among the Lakashi, were there? They were just a group who helped the story along. It was easy to forget that all of these people were living in the same area.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Don K. 

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  12. Finally, what did you think of the book? What would you like to say?

  posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Bear Warrior 

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    I already wrote my review, but I just wanted to ask others: did anyone like Mr. Fox? I found him slightly annoying, and I did not really like him.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Don K. 

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    I thought Fox was a weasel ... then wondered about the names Patchett chose for her characters.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Mr. Fox was pretty bad. It's hard to imagine that a man sends his lover, who is also significantly younger than he, in the Amazon and then after traveling all that way to find her, acts like he doesn't really know her very well.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    I enjoyed this book though there were parts of it that I found hard to accept. It was so hard for Marina and everyone to get out to that village but we were supposed to believe that Annik buzzed down there for long weekends? That didn't make much sense to me. Overall I enjoyed reading it but it was easy to start getting cranky over some of the details!

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Don K. (edited)

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    Jill, I liked this book. But, I have to agree there were lots of details, like Annick's long weekends, that didn't make much sense. For example, if Marina is 42 years old and her parents began giving her Lariam at the age of five (pg 38), then Marina's parents were already on the cutting edge of drug research because the first human trials on Lariam didn't take place until Marina was seven. Literary license.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Don, sometimes I get stuck on those kind of details but I'll say that with this book, I noticed them but they didn't irritate me enough to prevent me from enjoying the book.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Hey, Bear Warrior, where is your review of this book? I think I missed it!

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Sherry A 

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    I read this book last year, and the following review pretty much sums up how I felt:

    http://www.themorningnews.org/tob/state-of-wonder-v-the-sisters-brothers.php

    This was my 4th Patchett book, but none have lived up to Bel Canto.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Denizen (edited)

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    I enjoyed this book a great deal - 4 stars for me. It's my second Patchett and, marching to my own drummer on this one as most of my Shelfari friends disagreed, I preferred it to Bel Canto.

    The flaws that others found with this book simply didn't bother me. The Lakashi weren't well developed but it wasn't a book about the Lakashi. They were as vague to us as they were to Marina who could not communicate with them. Although not told in the first person, I felt that I was experiencing things as Marina was experiencing things. I enjoyed my vicarious time with these imperfect characters and this different world. Not being a big fan of Bel Canto, I did not have huge expcections for this novel and so, for me, it delivered.

    Sherry, I enjoyed the review you referenced, didn't agree, but definitely could see where he was coming from. Have you read The Sisters Brothers? My interest is piqued. Has anyone else read it?

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Don K. (edited)

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    I read the review Sherry referenced and The Sisters Brothers .

    I have to agree, I preferred The Sisters Brothers even though deWitt seemed to know very little about the time or place. I later listened to an interview with him and learned his setting was arbitrary and he was relieved when he discovered, subsequent to publication, details like the fact that toothbrushes were something of a novelty proved accurate.

    Patchett did a better job of researching State of Wonder. The medical aspects of the book couldn't have been too difficult for her -- Patchett's mother is a nurse, her stepfather is a physician and her husband is a physician. And, she spent some time in the Amazon so she knew about the opera house and she should have been able to describe Manaus and the rain forest.

    I was a little surprised by Patchett's research didn't yield better results.

    The characters didn't ring true: Marina was way too passive, Fox was way too timid, Annick was a criminal. Pretend for a minute someone from Brazil visited the United States to conduct unauthorized, potentially lethal, medical experiments on the civilian population in Minnesota. Criminal. And, the location didn't ring true: twelve hours from Manaus in a heavily laden boat powered by a 15 hp Evinrude motor, upstream yet, doesn't put you on the dark side of the moon.

    I enjoyed State of Wonder, but still ...

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Funny, I couldn't read The Sisters Brothers but I think it was my state of mind at the time.

    I've bought tickets again for the author series in Cleveland and Patchett is one of the authors. I'll let you know what I think of her talk!

    posted 9 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Hahtoolah 

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  I did not care for this novel. I didn't like any of the characters (with the exception of Easter) and found too much of the story unbelievable. I couldn't understand Marina's attraction to Mr. Fox or why he had such a hold over her. They had such an unbalanced relationship.

  I have found other novels by Patchett to be much more developed.

  posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Easter was a great character, wasn't he?

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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  katrina E. 

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  I enjoyed most of this book. However, I felt
  that the ending was rather hastily tacked on.

  posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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  Paula G 

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  This was the first book I read as part of this group. I thought it was good, although some parts seemed unbelievable. It did make me think about the possibilities of new drugs that could be out there. However, becoming a parent at age 70 is beyond me. Even though the Lakashi have the community take over for the child care, it still seems unfair to the child.

  posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Don K. (edited)

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    I don't know of many women who want to have children at age 70, but I do know of a few men who do. I agree with you -- it doesn't seem fair to the children.

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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    Jill M 

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    Did the Lakashi have a high mortality rate for children? If not, there should have been a larger population in this village when you think of how many women are giving birth!

    I'm glad you joined us for this book, Paula!

    posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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