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  "The Poor, always you have with you..."

  Every government of every nation on this Earth, and all their political leaders profess that they are doing everything possible to alleviate poverty. yet even in the most developed and progressive nations, slums exist and involuntary poverty abound. Economist today, use statistics and higher mathematics and computer modeling trying to solve this riddle.
  If it was written in the good book, shouldn't they believe and stop all their efforts in trying to solve the problem? Is it God's will that there will alway be the poor with us?

  Jose B started this discussion 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  Angie 

  In my opinion, one must define just what "God's Will" means to even begin to consider the meaning of your question. Some would say if something is God's Will that means God wants the situation to remain static, as it is. Other's might say that perhaps God's Will is that we all learn something from whatever situation we find ourselves in. Needing help, offering help, paying attention, ignoring; perhaps all of the players in this grand play of life are learning something from their parts and the consequences of the actions or inactions that they choose. I do not feel that God's Will means that one stops seeking solutions. An example might be certain diseases that are curable now, one could say it was God's Will that someone developed diabetes. Yet, isn't it also God's Will that someone has found a treatment for diabetes?

  Perhaps God's Will is an action rather than a situation?

  posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    Jose B 

    Thanks Angie, I should have written God's "Purpose" instead of God's Will.

    Some say God seeks the glory of mankind not his damnation, that the glory of mankind is also his glory. Yet, I could not see how He is Glorified by the present world poverty situation.

    Can we find a solution to the problem outside the realm of present-day economists?

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  Angie 

  A solution to poverty as a whole? My opinion is probably not. Conditions change constantly for the world of humanity as a whole as well as for each individual aspect. Solutions for each individual? That might happen. Yet, there will always be individuals newly entering conditions of poverty.

  posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    Jose B 

    It does look like it's hopeless. Solving involuntary poverty as a social problem seem impossible. On the personal side, there are those who worked hard and retire with a fully furnished house of his own, a car and other amenities that would make him a member of the lower middle class. A few, well educated personalities, using doubtful means have become filthy rich.
    Yet, when one looks at the picture of the blue and white planet, does it not look like a spaceship, fully provisioned with all the things which humanity requires in order to live and enjoy life while traveling towards eternity? Isn't this planet the Garden of Eden?
    Often taken as a punishment, it is written: "...in the sweat of thy face thou shalt eat bread..." I take this to mean, "work, produce, pick what you need from this Garden and live and enjoy your life. And I think this is the purpose of the Creator. However, something must have gone terribly wrong so now, 90% of us travelers toil for the very fortunate 10% rich. What happened?

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  Gary R (edited)

  The book, "A Course in Miracles" states: "God's Will is for us to rise to the highest pinnacle of perfection and bliss." We have free will on how to accomplish this. Could be, experiencing poverty is a way. Then again, helping people get free of poverty could be another way. Of course some of us have our own ways of reaching perfection, and becoming rich beyond all reason is a path chosen by many. That might make sense if we were going to live in this body and in this world forever, but that's not the way it is. I think it is not so much what you do, but who you are while you're doing it that matters.

  posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    Jose B 

    Hi Gary,
    If poverty is my chosen path to perfection, then it's ok, I agree with you. On a personal level, you are right, It is not so much what you do but who you are while you're doing it. However, when one is born into involuntary poverty like the untouchables of India, or the aborigines of Australia and other nations who have become landless and unemployed or restricted into reservations, it's another story. They spend most of their time working for survival wages, worrying what to feed their families for the next meal, no time at all for learning who they are.What hope do they have? How fortunate are those who have been born rich? Where did all their riches come from? When 90% of the working population toil for the 10% ruling class, is this God's purpose for man?

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    Gary R 

    Would you call Michael Jackson forturnate? Or Heath Ledger, or Howard Hughes? How about Elvis Presley and many others who were "filthy" rich. Didn't do them much good. So being rich isn't necessarilly the solution. I agree, the wealth of the world is unevenly distributed but I don't think God is doing it.

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    Jose B 

    To them who earned their wealth through hard work using their inherent abilities, I say congratulations! I wouldn't also consider that "filthy". But they are but a few of the exceptions in today's world. Indeed, Gary, being rich is not necessarily the solution. However, I'd like to see a society where everyone is able to satisfy their basic necessities of food, shelter, clothings, and be able to live a happy and healthy life through their own individual efforts. I'm glad we can both agree that there is a problem of "uneven distribution of wealth" in society. But if God is not doing it, then who?

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  Karen 

  The Bible is full of contradictions. Your title quotes, "The Poor, always you have with you..." And there's this quote: "…I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:24.

  posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  Jose B 

  Hi Karen,
  On a personal level, God is easier found when one no longer craves for the goods of the world, I agree. But when one looks at statistics specially from the poor developing nations: 1% filthy rich, 2% rich, 7% upper middle class, 25% lower middle class and 65% poor. And the poor and the lower middle class together, slave from 8 to 12 hours a day for subsistence wages, drink alcoholic beverages up to 4 hours in the evening so that they maybe able to sleep tight and be rested, to work again the next day. They spend most of their time worrying about what to feed themselves and their families for the next meal. This cannot be God's purpose for the crown of his creation - the man and the woman whom he called Adam, or is it?

  posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  Angie 

  Such interesting and thoughtful posts. I wonder just what is poverty? I understand what you are saying about those born into poorer circumstances and cultures. Yet, is there a difference among those who believe they are poor and those who do not?
  I am not completely sure what I am asking. However, when I was a little girl, my family was probably considered lower middle class or so, my parents owned a home, dad worked, mom had to go to work sometimes. Sometimes we were on food stamps. What I remember most however, was 2 of my best friends. One was from a wealthier family, they made me go home if I had to use the restroom or if they were going to eat a meal. My other best friend had 3 siblings, they lived with both of their parents in a very small 2 bedroom rented home. I was always invited to stay for meals and was expected to eat as much as I wanted and more than I wanted at times (don't you want another piece of pie, surely you have room for one more piece?). In terms of poverty of spirit, I'd have to say the wealthier family was the poorer.
  Perhaps the poverty you are speaking of is those who do not have enough means to care for basic needs. The problem there may often be the struggle for power among various groups that prevent food aid etc from coming to them. In which case, as long as there are those who wish to have power and control over others, poverty is likely to remain.

  posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    Jose B 

    Did you know we share the same kind of environment while growing up? Perhaps this is why I'd like to do something and help those who, despite their best efforts, have not been able to emancipate/exticate themselves from their situation.
    Mankind does not live by bread alone, but mankind needs bread while on his journey upon this planet Earth towards eternity. I love to think the Creator knows this and made the proper material provisions for it. All He asks mankind is to work, produce and pick from the Garden. Where everyone is allowed to produce for himself/herself and had enough for their basic material necessities to be able to enjoy a healthy life, then they would be able to find time for meaningful work = towards their own individual evolution. Where all have enough of their basic necessities and never have to worry about it, then, like you said, everyone would willingly share what they have to their friends and neighbors, and even to a complete stranger.
    But where there is abject material poverty in society, the greatest fear of those who presently have more than enough is to become materially poor again. And for the poor, in a society where only the wealthy get a better share of the law and respect of their fellowmen, some of them would want to get rich quick, first, legally if possible, but turn to crime in desperation. It is natural to seek recognition from one's peers, and if what they respect is money, then I'll get the money by hook or by crook!
    Indeed, as you said, Power and control over others through monopoly of economic resources is the problem. Gary said, there is unequal distribution of wealth but it is not God's doing. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I would add: All political power emanates from economic power, not vice-versa.
    Rephrasing: The problem of poverty is unequal distribution of wealth in society and God is not doing it. Power, Control and Monopoly of economic resources, is doing it. Man is doing it. And if it is manmade, there should be a way to stop/correct this problem, would you agree?

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  C2 

  poor = 1. lacking material possessions; 2. less than adequate
  Some of the poor may not be "poor."

  <shouldn't they believe and stop all their efforts...>
  Good question.

  posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    Jose B (edited)

    Hi C2,
    Let me define poverty as the inability of one to provide for himself and his family the basic necessities of life which are: food, shelter, clothings sufficient in quantity so that they may be able to enjoy a happy and healthy life on this planet. I see 2 types of poverty. 1 - Voluntary poverty, which is an individual right. I can choose to be poor materially but rich spiritually; and 2 - Involuntary poverty which is as defined above, earning subsistence wages, which is the present social problem.
    Gary says: "...there is a problem of 'uneven distribution of wealth' and God is not doing it."
    As to your question: Conversations with God by Neal Donald Walsh answers it this way: "If everyone stopped what they are doing and spent the next 24 hours really thinking about God and who they really are, then they would have completed their evolution on this planet Earth and move on to the next phase - that would be whatever the most wonderful SELF they wish and imagine themselves to be. This would also make the problem I posted and the solutions that maybe suggested, moot and academic, wouldn't it?

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    C2 

    Yes.

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  Nicholas D 

  Here's my take on this issue: In the teachings of the Lord Buddha, he says that there are people who are born poor because of their karma. And in a similar vein, Lord Jesus Christ said the poor will always be with us. I am of the opinion that both are correct. And I hasten to add that there are also many poor people who become so because of structures of oppression and greed perpetuated by greedy and oppressive people. But in both cases, the Lord Buddha and the Lord Christ never said that the poor should not be helped. In fact, if we are in a position to help the poor and we do not do so, it would certainly be a burden on our karma. That is my understanding on this topic.

  posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    Jose B 

    Thanks Nicholas, beyond karma and the people who have chosen poverty as their path towards their spiritual growth or evolution, the poverty that we see in this world today, I agree is basically caused by structures of oppression and greed. That poverty is not God's purpose for man, but that poverty is caused by systems imposed by men upon their own kind, means there is indeed hope that the system can be change for the better so that even the poorest of the poor will not have to worry about his next meal.

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  Gary R 

  Let's say there is some truth to the idea that for karmic reasons, we choose our experience, or the possibility of our experience, in this life. Therefore, some people may choose to be poor, or disabled, or suffer illness, so that there would be someone to help. How could you experience magnanimity and compassion if no one needed it? It's only egotistical thinking that believes being rich and famous is the greatest achievement possible.

  posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  Jose B 

  Hi Gary,
  Most, if not all of the members of the Seekers Group, whom I believe are progressing fast in their individual efforts towards their own evolution, wil agree with you. Being rich and famous is not and will never be the greatest achievement possible for anyone.
  However, if you try to live even for a day with the slum-dwellers, who will think they are fortunate if they were able to eat two meals for the day, to them, there is nothing better than being rich, never mind famous. We both agree that this is not God's doing.
  I dare say: Poverty is caused by the economic system (structures of oppression and greed - Nicholas D) set up by the government of most nations (people who wish to perpetuate their power and control over people - Angie) that ensures monopoly of national resources by a few, whether the system be called capitalism or socialism.
  But precisely because the system is manmade, there is hope that the system can be changed so that everyone will have enough everyday of their lives and will find time to start working the path of their own evolution.

  posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    Angie 

    I don't know if "the system" as a whole can be changed. Perhaps this is one of those think globally act locally situations. I can do what I can in my immediate environment, I may be able to do something in my town or state or?
    As an example, we had an elderly neighbor ( I live in rural mountains so "neighbor" is someone about 2 miles down the road) who died recently at the age of about 95. Up until about 2 years ago, he would get out his old tractor and plow up a large area of his land. He planted corn and turnips. When the corn was ripe he would fill up cardboard boxes, and drive down the long country driveways on our road. he would drop off a box of corn at each house. The corn was wormy as he didn't use any pesticides, fertilizer or anything. but it was really good. When the weather report would announce the first frost he would drive around to folk's houses asking them to go pick whatever turnip greens they wanted out of his fields as it was all giong to go to waste if it wasn't picked.

    He did this all of the first 15 years that I have lived on this road. I used to worry about him driving his pickup around on our road, when he stopped to talk you could see that he had real bad cataracs on his eyes and he never recognized anyone that he stopped to talk with. We were all real careful driving and walking when we saw him out on the road. He never drove on any other roads as probably no driver's license and his pickup had a "farm" plate so it wasn't to be driven on regular roads.

    He was such a lovely example of God's Love in Action! He never let anyone think he was trying to be charitable. He would always complain he had too much corn and would you please take it off his hands. And those darn turnip greens will all go to waste because of this dang frost a comin'.

    For my own part, I try to keep my attention on what Divine Spirit, (or God, or whatever you conceive the source of creation to be) wishes me to do today. How can I serve God through serviing everyone whom I meet. Sometimes this service is a smile or a hug, sometimes it is a meal, sometimes I feel a nudge to drive down a road I haven't been down before and speak to someone that I will see there. It is amazing the answers that come through when one asks "within" what is needed and how to go about it.

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    Jose B (edited)

    It is said: "Change is the only thing permanent in this world of illusion." So systems can change. Before the institution of divine kings, there were tribal societies where everything was communal property. The divine kings' feudal system still persist despite the victory of the first French Republic, but slowly, in most developing nations, the clamor today is land reform. A highly charged group like the seekers, where members seem to be very advance in their own individual and personal evolutions, should be a very potent sponsor for change. But first, we all have to agree what to change and how to effect such changes. For this reason I put in 3 more subjects for discussion that should lead us to where we wish this thing to be. You are right, think global and do what is possible individually.

    Your live in an enviable environment, up in the mountains people are nearer to God. Your elderly neighbor and you are very good example of what God has meant his creation to be. For our basic necessities, nature is bountiful and everyone would infact gladly share the fruits of his garden even to the strangers who happen to pass by. In a society of people who do not have to worry about their basic necessities, liesure time would be spent discussing/learning spiritualityk, religion, soul evolution, philosophy. Wouldn't that be a great society? A great World? Charity or Love is human nature.

    If you have not read "Conversations with God, Book I" by Neal Donald Walse, find yourself a copy. It is written like Plato's Dialogues. Thefore read this book like you are asking all the questions and let Him answer you from His Heart. The truths contained here are the mysteries hidden in coded languages by the so-called initiates of ancient and modern mysteries....

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  Lance - Author of "Ask James One" 

  It is not God's will that some people will reject the offer of salvation and condemn themselves, yet some do. Poverty may or may not be a choice depending on the individual and their situation, but the have's DO have a choice whether to assist the have nots. This is why it is easier to thread course camel hair through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to see the kingdom of God.

  Wealth is an effect, not a cause. Causes are love or selfishness. Either produces its own form of wealth or poverty.

  posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    Jose B 

    Thanks Lance, on a personal level, I agree with you completely. But on the social or community level, I posted three more subjects which I hope you will find time to comment on.

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  Misty 

  Great thoughts. Blame goverments, the economic systems, God or anything else for all of the poverty in the world. Our society has gotten so far away from each human having the ability to easily provide for ourselves or family because not much is done the natural way - like having a garden - or as a community. Take the aboriganals Gary mentioned. They probably always had years of hardship but did not think they were missing out until a different way of living was introduced. When there is a desire for something to be different you can choose to be unhappy or catapult a change.

  posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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    Jose B 

    Thanks Misty, let us catapult a change!!!
    But before we can do that, we've got to know what and how to change things so that we can bring the system back the natural way. For these reason, I have posted 3 more topics for discussion and hope you will find time to comment on.
    Economics is defined by present day masters as: "the allocation of scarce resources so that certain human desires maybe satisfied." What scarce resources? Who allocates these resources? What human desires should be satisfied? How will they allocate these resources? Is there a problem here?

    posted 4 months ago. ( reply )

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  G. R 

  Studies have shown that except for the extremely poor, the amount of material wealth one possesses has no bearing on happiness.

  I think when one gets born in poor living conditions it is either a Karmic debt repayment or a Spiritual test that enables one to graduate to the next level of spiritual growth. There are lessons involved in being rich too - whether one helps others or if one becomes arrogant and egoistic.

  In essence, what I am getting at is, whatever we experience in our life is meant to help us clear past issues and grow spiritually. One who is poor in this world may actually be quite rich in the spiritual world.

  posted 3 months ago. ( reply )

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    Angie 

    Ahh, now there's an answer I can wholeheartedly agree with. Interestingly, the "rich" may be working off a karmic debt as well - and it's not necessarily "good" karma.

    posted 3 months ago. ( reply )

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  She 

  It is my opinion that poverty is based in politics, not religion, status or material wealth. For instance, one way to measure poverty is by the abundance or lack thereof to feed oneself and one's family. There really is enough food present on this green earth so that no one, repeat NO ONE, should go hungry. Due to rules, regulations, laws, corporate greed, agribusiness practices, inept delivery processes, corruption, etc., hunger exists.

  posted 3 weeks ago. ( reply )

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    Jose B 

    Hi She,
    Indeed, She, you're right, No one should go hungry on this beautiful planet Earth. It is meant to be the spaceship, fully provided for man's (men and women) journey towards eternity. Everything we need in order to live and enjoy our material life while on the journey is found stored in or on it, and all we need to do is work, open up its bounties. But some intelligent men who came before us, invented writing, and He wrote a title deed for this planet, claimed that he decended from God and therefor, the rightful owner of the spaceship Earth, to the exclusion of the rest of humanity. All the generations with him and after him who were not members of his family became tenants and had to pay their fare to get to heaven.
    While it is written: "From the sweat of they brow thou shalt eat bread...," this learned man, this self-made king anointed by God, no longer had to sweat for his bread. He took the male children and trained them to be his soldiers, took the young women to be his wives and concubines. The spaceship is his, and all who would not honor him as such, all who would not pay him his rent, he had the full authority to kill or banish.
    Enlightened men and women rebelled and stablished republics and democratic governments, but the title deeds the king has written became special documents of property rights of those who now rule the people who therefore must remain serfs and slaves, working for starvation wages, save for 39 years so that he may buy himself a house built on a 40 square meter lot.

    posted 3 weeks ago. ( reply )

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