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  Part Two: Ellsworth Toohey - Discussion

  Summary:
  
  At the start of Part Two, Roark has closed his office and has begun work at Guy Francon's granite quarry in Connecticut. Dominique Francon is vacationing at her father's estate. It is on one of her walks to the quarry that she sees Roark. They are attracted to each other in a very Ayn Rand sort of way. Dominique finds a way to get Roark to her house through the pretense of broken marble. Their severe attraction culminates to a very violent sexual episode. Both Roark and Dominique return to New York - he to work on the Enright house and she to escape the nameless quarry worker. The Enright House brings Roark recognition and also brings him into Dominique's company as Howard Roark, Architect. Dominique resolves to destroy Roark and their connection grows. Ellsworth Toohey forms an alliance with Dominique to destroy Roark by obtaining commissions for Peter Keating, but Roark is still gaining recognition. Toohey convinces his follower, Hopton Stoddard, who is adamant about opening a temple despite Toohey's wish for him to open a special school, to hire Roark. Stoddard, on Toohey's suggestion, keeps the building a secret and goes on vacation to let Roark take creative control. Roark commissions Steven Mallory to sculpt a nude statue of Dominique. When Stoddard returns and sees the temple he is outraged. He sues Roark for reconstruction costs, there is a trial in which Dominique testifies, and in the end Roark loses both the trial and his reputation. Toohey gets the institution that he originally wanted. Peter Keating decides to finally marry Catherine Halsey and promises to return to her in the morning so they can elope. Dominique comes to him in the night and they elope instead. Dominique tells Roark she is now Mrs. Keating and they announce their love for each other. Roark and Toohey finally meet at the reconstructed Temple and Toohey asks Roark what he thinks of him. Roark honestly replies that he doesn't think of him at all. Although Roark is left with nothing in the end, he has still won - independent spirit in tact.
  
  Questions: (pick and choose or answer them all. Just some food for thought!)
  
  1. At the granite quarry, Dominique is deeply attracted to the red-headed worker who stares at her insolently. She pursues him aggressively, but resists him in the moment of her triumph. Given that Dominique is eager to make love to Roark, why does she physically resist? Ayn Rand once stated regarding this scene that, if it is rape, "then it is rape by engraved invitation." What does she mean? Is this actually rape, i.e., is Dominique an unwilling victim?
  
  2. Though strongly attracted to Roark, Dominique both pursues and fights him. Is this inner conflict regarding her love representative of some deeper aspect of her character? How does this ambivalence relate to her destruction of the Greek statuette that she loves? To joining forces with Ellsworth Toohey in an effort to wreck Roark's career? To refusing to pursue a serious career in spite of her great intelligence? Are Dominique's motives for thwarting Roark the same as Toohey's?
  
  3. At this point of Roark's career he is hired by Roger Enright, Anthony Cord and Kent Lansing to construct major buildings. What kind of men are Enright, Cord and Lansing? Do they share some fundamental characteristic in common with each other and with Austen Heller? What does Lansing mean when he tells Roark that "the shortest distance between two points is not a straight line--it's a middleman?"
  
  4. At Kiki Holcolmbe's party, Keating gives advice to Roark. He says: "Always be what people want you to be." What is the meaning of such a statement? Why does Keating believe this? What does such an approach to life reveal about the soul of Keating and of people like him?
  
  5. At the same party, Dominique thinks of Roark's as "the face of a god." What is she responding to in Roark? In seeing such beauty in Roark's face, an evaluation not shared by the rest of society, what does Dominique reveal about her own soul?
  
  6. Dominique begins to write about Roark's buildings in her column. She words them in such a way as to give the appearance of criticism while actually offering extravagant praise. Why does she hope that Roark's buildings will be destroyed in a future air raid? What is her view of human society, and of the possibility of great men succeeding in it?
  
  7. Toohey convinces Hopton Stoddard to hire Roark to build the Stoddard Temple. What is Toohey's purpose? Why does he seek to brand Roark an enemy of religion? What is Toohey's deeper reason for attempting to end Roark's career?
  
  8. Though Dominique testifies for the plaintiff at the Stoddard Temple trial, she praises the building and criticizes both Toohey and society. Why does she want the building torn down? How do her motives differ from Toohey's? In what way is the trial Dominique's worst nightmare come true?
  
  9. Roark hires Mallory to do the sculpture for the Temple, but Mallory, despite his youth, is already bitter and disillusioned. What is the cause of Mallory's nascent cynicism? What does Roark do that helps Mallory overcome his disillusionment? Are there similarities between Mallory's early career and the life of Henry Cameron?
  
  10. After the trial, Dominique accepts Keating's earlier proposal and marries him. Given her undying love for the integrity of Roark's buildings and person, and her recognition that Keating is the antithesis of everything she reveres, it is appropriate to ask what Dominique seeks in such a marriage. For what purpose does she marry the man she considers society's most despicable representative?
  
  11. At the end of Part Two, Roark's career is again at low ebb and it appears that Toohey's scheming has been successful. Toohey seeks him out to ask what Roark thinks of him. What does this question reveal about Toohey's soul? Roark answers in simple honesty that he does not think of him. What does such an answer reveal about Roark's soul? These two characters represent the fundamental antipodes in the universe of the novel. What is the primary difference between them?
  
  12. Why does the novel sanction Roark's egoism but not Toohey's? Since the novel encourages the single-minded realization of one's goals, why does Rand disapprove of Toohey's quest for domination?
  
  My Own Ponderings:
  
  - Anyone notice that all of the characters have a hyper conscious awareness of everything going on around them? It is incredibly often that the characters "suddenly know" the truth of a situation. Is this realistic? If it isn't, why does Rand give her characters this ability?
  
  - Can we compare Roark and Dominique's first sexual encounter to Peter's first meeting with Toohey?
  
  - Do we feel differently about each of the characters after Part Two?
  
  - Is Toohey selfless or selfish? How is the answer to this question different from the answer from Part One, is Roark selfless or selfish?
  
  - What is happening to Francon in this part? What does this say about Peter's future?
  
  

  HemingwayHeroine started this discussion 3 months ago. ( reply )

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  HemingwayHeroine 

  Let me start with the question concerning the part of this Part which is most prevelant in my mind:
  
  1. I have to admit that I am more than disturbed by this scene and everything that it implies. And I get it... perfectly. It still makes me sick. What does she mean by "rape by engraved invitation"? She means to tell us, the reader, those readers who are offended by this passage, that we are morons, and that this isn't rape at all. This is Roark and Dominque's way of understanding each other. That what is worse is the sex between Peter and Dominque - her submission in that act is far worse than the violent agression towards Roark's advances. However, the description of this scene, the way it identifies with a true rape - his domination, her screams, the need to cleanse herself, the bruises, accompanied by her admission that she wanted it.... I don't know. Maybe it is just me, and maybe it is the time that this was written in, but we've made too much headway in this area for women's rights that having it displayed in this way makes the "She asked for it" statement suddenly relevant again. I hated this scene beyond words, and while I still like the book, I think that The Fountainhead will be the beginning and end of Rand for me.

  posted 3 months ago. ( reply )

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    ericalynnb 

    I agree with you--I had major problems with this scene as well and although I understand on some level what Rand was trying to accomplish with this scene I wish she had done so in some other way. I remember her saying in the introduction that her purpose for writing the novel was Roark because he is her ideal of the perfect man. I'm just not ok with her "ideal man" being a rapist. I don't care what the context is. If she was physically resisting he should have stopped, and I realize that it was probably meant to be more symbolic than anything, but I think that too many people might use it as a justification to themselves with the whole "she asked for it" bent logic. This is another example of how I like some of Ayn Rand's ideas in general, but I think that she pushes them too far to the extreme. I believe in more moderation.

    posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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    HemingwayHeroine 

    I think you said that perfectly, Erica. I like her ideas in general, but she does push them too far.

    posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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    ramya.k83 

    Hey guys,
    
    So I went through a couple of Ayn Rand's discussion boards online (I know, geek) and this scene is obviously a huge topic. Surprisingly, it came up on a psychology health network where a lot of women were discussing this scene and its slightly "rape fantasy" theme. I found this really interesting mostly because, as you said HH (this is your new nickname HemingwayHeroine, much shorter!) Dominique seems to go through the usual reactions as a rape victim, until she actually makes it to the bathroom and it ends with her collapsing from pleasure, or something. As twisted as it seems, Rand is trying to show her version of a strong woman, a woman in control who pushed a man to do what she wanted. Dominique's entire path is trying to find someone who can own her, possess her. (I would love for us to have a separate discussion about this, from all of our female members' views.) And Roark is the type of man who knows what he wants and takes it, its Rand's entire theme. The problem is that Rand applies all her rules to everything, and you just can't do that with people. Erica, you said it perfectly. There are too many people that would take advantage of such an idea, "Oh well I thought thats what she wanted". In an ideal world of Rand followers who are extremely smart and apparently clairvoyant, such a relationship might work, maybe. But in our world, there are too many who would love to use this as an excuse to simply justify their desires without those desires being reciprocated.
    
    As you mentioned HH, this scene truly makes me sick as well, its one of my worst nightmares. But I understand what Rand was trying to prove, even though I hate it and find it incredibly disturbing. But you'll be surprised that by the end of the book, you really never even remember it, or at least I didn't. Like Erica said, the ideas seem great theoretically, but practical application to any and all opportunities is impossible in the real world. This scene is a perfect example of how Rand's ideas are taken too far, but I think that generally, the book far outweighs this scene.

    posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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    ramya.k83 

    3. Enright, Lansing, Heller and Cord are all the type of men Roark wishes to build for. They are not looking to please others, they want a building that is built for themselves, that is functionally built for them, where every piece of the building is necessary to the function of the building and the lives of the people in them. They feel the same way about architecture that Roark does.
    
    Lansing's phrase shows one of the toughest points of our society, in that in most transactions, there is always a middle man. I think that often people think of the middle man as someone who ensures neither party receiving what they want and Rand shows us another version. It is almost like admitting that as perfect as Roark seems to be, he needs someone to argue for him, someone who understands how to translate his talent and skills into something others can understand. He can downplay Roark, what others are immediately intimidated by as soon as Roark steps into the room. I think that Rand often shows characters as extremes, and this was her way of showing that while not everyone is capable of the extraordinary, they can always appreciate it and fight for it. Am I reading too much into this?

    posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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    ericalynnb 

    I think you put it well Ramya-- as much as the scene disturbed me the book does outweigh that scene and I enjoyed it, even though I don't necessarily agree with everything in it.
    
    I seem to remember something in the introduction about Ayn Rand saying that most people will not understand her novels and that she is just writing for the few who will. I think that Ayn Rand probably realized that this scene would be interpreted improperly by many, she just didn't care. She was really only writing for herself, and possibly for those few who 'understand' her--in a true Rand 'selfish' way.

    posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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  ericalynnb 

  2) Dominique is very like Rand in that she seems to see the world in terms of black and white. She does not think it is possible to live in the way someone like Roark does in her society, and so instead she goes to the other extreme and lives her life as falsely as possible. She teams up with Toohey because they both don't want Roark to get building commissions but with Toohey it's more of a moral, if you want to call it that, objection to Roark's character and his work and with Dominique it's because she doesn't think that their society deserves Roark's buildings and that creating buildings like Roark's against such an unclean background and letting them be seen by unworthy eyes will somehow dirty the buildings themselves.

  posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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    HemingwayHeroine 

    2. Some of this remains a bit of a mystery to me. But, I think that Dominque stands above the rest of humanity in her understanding of it. In her understanding of the lack of understanding in the general population. To her, true beauty should not exist if it can not be truly appreciated. Truth (real Tolstoyan TRUTH) seems to be the center of everything in this novel; and the lengths which some of the characters go to hide it. / Her motives are DEFINITELY not the same as Toohey's in Roark's destruction.

    posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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    ramya.k83 (edited)

    Dominique and Toohey clearly have different motives. Toohey and Dominique are similar in that they both understand Roark and his motives, but they both have very different reactions. Dominique, as both of you have stated, doesn't believe that the world deserves Roark or his talents because they don't know how to appreciate it. Toohey does everything he can to stop Roark because Roark builds as an individual for the individual, and for someone attempting to acquire power, there is no bigger obstacle than individual/contrary thinking.
    Its really tough to explain Dominique's thinking, but its sort of like having the lowest possible expectations to avoid disappointment. By making herself exactly what she hates, she can numb herself to a point where nothing else can get to her. Or thats what she thinks, till she meets Roark. Then it becomes a mission to destroy him and the beauty he represents because it does not belong in a world where people are told what to think and what to approve of. Unlike Roark, who just bides his time and is happy with whatever work is brought to him, like Erica said, Dominique is very limited in her thinking. They don't like Roark, Roark should stop or be stopped. Its a very important idea, because this is the central struggle between Dominique and Roark, and it is the only challenge to their relationship, Dominique's refusal to live as she is in a world where the majority rejects it. Hope it makes sense, its the best way to understand Dominique.

    posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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  ramya.k83 

  Hey guys...where did everyone go? I know, I can't complain. Ok well hopefully this will jumpstart some more discussion!
  
  4. Keating's statement states in simple terms his type of business. He became an architect to win everyone's approval and to be acknowledged by everyone. The best way to do so would be to do exactly as they ask and be the kind of person that they want. He is selling himself and not his talent or skills. He just wants to be liked, not truly appreciated as an architect.

  posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

  show 3 replies

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    HemingwayHeroine 

    4. It is how people like Peter, Francon, etc, believe the world works. Keating beleives this because, unfortunately, it works. It is exactly how he gets ahead in life. I think it reveals a troubled soul, for Peter. And for anyone like him. A chameleon might never be able to answer the question, "What color are you?" if it takes on the color of whatever it is near.

    posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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    ericalynnb (edited)

    4. I agree with both of you. I think Keating is the kind of person who spends so much time trying to be what other people want him to be he forgets who he really is or what he really wants.
    
    I think it important also to mention that to some extent we all do this--I know that I behave differently at work than I do around my best friend or around my grandparents. The difference here is that Peter doesn't know who he really is, nor do I think he has ever really bothered to ask himself or try and find out. Keating is nothing without his masks, and he also takes this to an extreme.

    posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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    ramya.k83 

    Absolutely Erica, it does show a side we all have. Its an important topic in Social Psychology, because we are all so complex, so we play different roles for different people. At work I tend to be more quiet and focused on what I'm doing; whereas at home and with friends I tend to be the more outgoing, loud one. But we all have something underneath, the part of us that never changes. Keating doesn't know about that part, or rather, he doesn't think that its important enough to keep safe. But for Roark and Dominique, that is the most important part.

    posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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  ericalynnb 

  I have some free time at work to post more, but unfortunately since I finished the book a while ago now, I can't answer all the questions as some specifics have faded from my gold-fish like memory.
  
  6.By giving the appearance of criticism while offering praise she can accomplish her purpose of preventing anyone from hiring Roark while still giving her honest opinion. It's quite clever actually, I enjoyed reading these columns. She doesn't think Roark's buildings should be destroyed because they are unworthy, but rather because society is unworthy of such masterpieces. Her rather cynical outlook doesn't allow for people recognizing Roark's genius or that of any great man in society.
  
  7. Toohey wanted Roark branded as an enemy of religion because people get very touchy about that subject and if they think that Roark is an enemy of religion they will make it a point to make an enemy out of him. Toohey knows this and uses this to attempt to end Roark's career because (as I believe was already pointed out by someone) Roark is an individualist and there is nothing more dangerous to someone trying to sway masses and instill conformity.
  
  8.Toohey and Dominque both don't want Roark's buildings to be made, but Toohey does it because he is afraid of Roark and Dominque does it because she doesn't want the buildings to become dirtied by people who are unworthy looking at them. The trial is proof of what Dominque was afraid of all along--society at large doesn't understand Roark's buildings and will try to--in Dominque's eyes-vandalize them by changing them.
  
  10. She marries Peter because she wants to punish herself--I believe she says so quite plainly in the book. I would think that she was being unfair to Peter by doing this, but he is entirely aware of the situation. He lets down someone he truly cares about and wants to be with and who truly cares about and wants to be with him for a woman that hates him just to advance his career and please his mother. This is dispicable and cowardly and I think as much as I pitied him in that moment I really hated him then more than at any other point in the book for what he did to Catherine. Especially when I saw later on what it turned her into.
  
  12. I think the main difference is that Roark's world is more or less self-contained. He doesn't think about other people or need them to live, other than the occasional job offer. He designs buildings because he wants to and he must do it and he doesn't care about what other people think of them so long as they are built. Toohey, on the other hand, DOES care about what other people think of him and his goal is, in fact, to dominate other people. Single-mindedly pursuing your passion for building and single-mindedly pursuing power are two totally different things. Toohey's pursuit is not insular, it requires other people and their approval. That is why Ayn Rand does not approve. If any of that makes any sense.

  posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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