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  Atheists’ Anonymous - A Plea for Help...

  My fellow atheists, I find myself in a dilemma of faiths (so to speak) and I have reflected over this long & hard only to ascertain no solution. As I lay it onto you to aid me in this query, allow me to first define certain factors in play…
  
  An Introduction…
  
  I was born into a very weakly defined hindu family. I was never raised to have a strong sense of religious beliefs almost to the point of being an agnostic before I even knew what the word meant. Then, as I grew more inquisitive & began questioning the role of religion I was introduced to virtually every “holy text” out there & soon after, to what indeed turned out to be my own personal bible, the “Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy”. I went from Douglas Adams to Richard Dawkins and from a confused “seeker” to a “radical atheist” virtually instantaneously.
  
  Given my surroundings however, what was a revelation-esq change for me, was largely unnoticed by my friends or family or even my girlfriend (who’s also a feisty lil’ atheist).
  
  And so, life went on… I read some wonderful books, saw some brilliant documentaries & found myself engaging in some very inspired debates on theology but by & large… life went on, and it did so unchanged.
  
  This is my scenario & a perfectly content one it is.
  
  A Lament…
  
  Unfortunately, not too many people have the luxury of finding atheism so uncomplicated. There are people who claim to have very “personal” relationships with their deities & others who claim to simply “need” the God(s) to continue with day-to-day affairs. Both of these, I feel, can be countermanded by a healthy dose of free-inquiry & unabashed reasoning.
  
  There is one other scenario & it is this particular vice which has formed this dilemma within me. And that vice goes by the name of the “church”. Not your everyday kinda church, y’know, the kind you visit once a week & on Easter & Christmas. No, I mean the kind of mini-community that is so deeply entrenched within a believer’s life that there exists quite simply a different world outside it.
  
  When you have your entire family, your entire circle of friends… everyone you know & life & care for… as part of a deeply (and almost always exclusionary) community that is glued by the bonds of religion… the church is quite literally your whole life.
  
  A Dilemma…
  
  My dilemma, as it must have become clear to many of you already, is whether or not I ought to even engage a person of the aforementioned life in theological debates… let alone recommend Harris or Hitchens to them.
  
  In this instance, I have a friend who is very deeply religious (a "Jehovah Witness", for those of you who may care to know) & I used to enjoy having these discussions with her immensely upto the day I realized that I could essentially win the arguments.
  
  That day came & went nearly a year ago, and in the time since I have felt a deep gorge form between our friendship & I fear I will lose a friend if we don’t acknowledge the theological differences between us. I also fear that in acknowledging the theological differences, I may be sowing the seeds of doubt within her & by doing so I would eventually drive her away from her own life.
  
  So I plead this case onto you, and I beseech you to help me understand what course of action would be most prudent for me to undertake here. Abandon a friendship or risk the utter abandonment of friend by “her own people”… or do you perhaps see an alternative to this predicament, perhaps having faced it before yourself?
  
  

  Gaurav S. started this discussion 5 months ago. ( reply )

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  randem (edited)

  I feel safe in suggesting that anyone bearing the title "atheist" has faced this situation at some point. Probably often. There are a few ways you can choose to approach the situation. Usually, it is a matter of the level of the other person's face that makes the difference, though at times the more important detail is what that person means to you.
  
  Some people are heavily indoctrinated, unwavering fundamentalists, and with them one typically faces two possible outcomes. The most common outcome is that they are unable to even consider the possibility that their beliefs are wrong and the reaction is one of dramatic opposition. The other possible (but far less common) result is that what you say actually sinks in and has the dramatic and possibly devastating result of shaking the foundation of everything the person's life has been built around.
  
  In the case of these heavily indoctrinated people, neither of the likely outcomes is desirable. (Granted, these are not the only possible outcomes, just the most likely.) When the odds favor unfavorable results, I tend to proceed based on how much or how little I value my relationship with that person. If it is a dear family member, or a very close friend, I tend to simply acknowledge that our beliefs are different, and refrain from offering any remark or opinion on my position, while paying no mind to their remarks or opinions.
  
  In other cases, when the religious person is a bit more liberal and/or open-minded, I find that I can have very healthy, very thought-provoking discussions on the topic. Presuming that both sides maintain a level of respect for each other, you and your friend can disagree without offending one-another, and in the process build a strong bond of friendship. With these more liberal people, there are very low odds of you shaking their beliefs or making any conversions, and that's actually preferable in many cases because without the threat of destroying a belief system, people are far less defensive. I have a few friends who fit this description who treasure our time together (and I feel the same) due to our ability to have such meaningful and intelligent conversations.
  
  On a side note, you said that you realized you could win the arguments. The implication of this is that it is a contest, and if that's the case, then you're not really accomplishing anything. It should not be about winning an argument. Either you enjoy the discourse (and that's fine) or else you're trying to deprogram someone... in either case, focusing on winning goes against your goal.

  posted 5 months ago. ( reply )

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    Gaurav S. 

    I believe that the liberal minded theists that refer to, particularly in regards to having due respect for dissimilar views, are the very same that I would fear receiving the less likely fundamentalist’s reaction from.
    
    And that outcome is indeed what I fear I might cause if I pursue this line of discussions.
    
    The open-minded individual who can assess both sides of the discussion is more likely to find the reasoning offered by atheism to be more rational & logical than what is offered by their own religion(s).
    
    But alas, after discussing all that we did in your other thread on the threat of theism, specifically the detrimental nature of possessing even moderate theistic belief-systems… I find it very hypocritical of myself to not facilitate the inquiries that may perhaps rid my friend of the same! Is it indeed prudent of me or you to “simply acknowledge that our beliefs are different, and refrain from offering any remark or opinion on my position” when we so ardently contest the worth of the same?
    
    Isn’t it more honest of us to try & win the argument considering how we both feel about religious beliefs, even those possessed by liberal-minded moderates?
    
    I believe that humbly & politely, without disrespecting their faiths, we ought to indeed attempt assisting them in their “deprogramming”.
    
    Sounds so preachy, doesn’t it?
    Trouble is, although I do feel I am being honest here & I do feel that what I stated above is what we “ought” to do… I find it very hard to consider the implications of doing the same to someone whose world revolves around their religion.
    
    

    posted 5 months ago. ( reply )

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  Ravish 

  On inroduction -- Most Hindu families are what you can call weakly defined. This is a good thing as at least there would be more Hindus who are less indoctrinated and hence more likely to become scientifically oriented rather than remain religiously deluded.
  
  On lament -- It is not easy to get rid of the hundreds and thousands of years of induced delusions. As we progress we will have more people with a scientific outlook and less people with a religious closed-mind. Things are going to change slowly, but surely if scientific progress continues. We should remain focused on progress, and let the rest follow on its own.
  
  On dilemma -- Some deeply religious people are hard to be convinced. As long as they are not a threat to society or any person, it is best to leave them. You may not start the topics about science or religion on your own in the presence of this so-called "Jehovah witness". But if she starts the topic, you should fearlessly put your point across and tell only what is scietifically correct.

  posted 5 months ago. ( reply )

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  uplandpoet 

  Well my perspective is certainly different:
  I was raised by a fundamentalist preacher, my father, and a devout mother, so when i left seminary and became an atheist, i hurt a lot of feelings and got mine hurt a lot, i ended up leaving off my extended family for about a decade, then slowly adding them back as i got to where i could deal with their lack of understanding and respect for my position. i now have a careful but vibrant relationship with most of my cousins, my parents and my brother, while not joining my viewpoint, never were estranged. by the way, i am now an agnostic, as i find being dogmatic about theism one way or the other to be equally silly, but of course everyone has to come to their own place of faith, lack of faith or faith in not believing....

  posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

  show 1 reply

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    Justin M 

    It's great that you can have a good relationship with your family after telling them what you believe in or don't believe in. We shouldn't lose contact with family or friend just because they believe in something different to us. Also we should be accepting of all people no matter what their beliefs are. I'd find it impossible to not like somone based on their religion. In fact, I wouldn't mind at all.
    
    Sure, we're all different and some of us find it hard to deal with the fact that are family member or friend has changed their religion or abandoned the whole thing altogether. These people have probably spent their whole lives being deeply religious and when they find out that one of their family or friends aren't it can be a big shock.

    posted 2 months ago. ( reply )

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